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Old 03-11-2010, 09:09 AM
 
Location: São Paulo
6,259 posts, read 7,141,709 times
Reputation: 3612
I was on the Green Line this morning and I started thinking about the people whom I was riding on the subway with. It was a wide array of people ranging from white, black, Asian, Indian, Latino, etc, etc. However, is it like this for every city? I know majors like New York, Chicago, DC, etc will have a large mix of races riding mass transit, but what about smaller systems?

While at college, I would ride the bus and often be the only white person riding. It was mostly Asian and Indian grad students. I don't know how accurate it is, but Atlanta's MARTA system has a nickname which I learned from some of my Atlanta-area friends which highlights the number of African-Americans who ride the system (definitely not politically correct, but the nickname does exist).

But what about smaller systems in Dallas, Phoenix, Denver, etc (or even larger systems like Los Angeles)? When you ride your system do you notice a particular demographic that dominates your system?

For Boston, all the inner stops are a huge mix of races but the outer areas tend to be:

Orange Line is predominantly black since it runs into heavily African American communities like Roxbury, Dorchester, and Malden.

Red Line - Ashmont is a healthy mix of white and black.
Red Line - Braintree is a mix of white and Asian, but is majority Asian since it travels to Quincy, better known as Chinatown South.

Blue Line - I haven't ridden the blue much, but it seems to have a healthy mix from what I've experienced.

Silver Line - same thing as the Blue Line.

Green Line - decent mix, but the majority race is definitely white. This is obviously influenced by the fact that it runs into all the colleges in the Western neighborhoods of the city. Boston University, Boston College, Northeastern, Emmanuel, Wentworth, Berklee, Simmons, and about a dozen or so other small colleges.

How about your city?
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Old 03-11-2010, 09:52 AM
 
Location: THE THRONE aka-New York City
3,012 posts, read 3,262,861 times
Reputation: 1092
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
I actually said NYC has one of the best systems in the world in the very first sentence. How did you get to the middle without even seeing that? Is it a special kind of reading disorder? Please let me know so in the future I'll put all the content in the middle for you.

It might be you who has comprehension skills. I never said you didnt say nyc is one of the best in the world. But you continue to bash it and big up european systems as if they were flawless when clearly their not, your not the only person whos traveled. Others that have been to europe clearly state that some of ya are making it more than what it is


I live in NYC. Guess what, I've also lived in other cities with great transportation systems, and none of them have been as unreliable as NYC's. I actually give you specific examples backed by actual studies of the system when you can't even proffer anecdotal evidence of other systems for comparison. A 24 hour system is great--it also comes with a great cost to the good maintenance (along with the fiscal health that comes hand in hand) of the system.

A 24 hour system is not just "great" it is a technical feat far more impressive than anything you can throw at it. period. Looking at nyc subway map and reaizing that all of that never stops running is more impressive than anything london or paris is throwing. I dont see how one can look at it and not see that. Compare the maps side by side

24 hour bus service is not the 24 hour bus service we have in NYC. It's one that's more intelligently implemented and replicates the metro system at a far lower cost to the city while still giving you approximately the same travel times. I've said this before, but apparently I'll have to repeat it several times for this to be clear. Night owl buses are not the same as daytime buses. They are not the same as the night bus service found in NYC. They are altogether a different beast. They can be express buses making limited stops, given priority at traffic lights (so that means they're green when the bus gets to the intersection so it's a straight shot through), and operate when there is no traffic congestion to contend with. Have you ever driven a car or taken a taxi at NYC during the wee hours of the night?

A car or a taxi is exactly that- a car or a taxi. Where talking about bus. Dont insult my intelligence by saying a bus can get from the bronx to far rockaway faster than a train in the wee hours of the morning. The thing your not getting through to your noggin, is that nyc is a five borough system. If we were just talking manhattan than i'd give it to you, but where not. So still your persistance with this whole bus thing remains laughable

You pay 2.25 for a one-way ticket from top to bottom. Now what if you actually only needed to go a quarter of that distance and you had to pay a smaller fare instead? You don't think that's equitable at all? Is it better to spread the fare all around rather than to have a fare system that asks you to pay what you use (which could be far cheaper for people who aren't going through dozens of stops)? I don't think one system is better than the other, so I don't see why I'm supposed to be impressed with this since my line of work and where I live usually has me going about four stops. If we did a fare zone system, I would obviously be paying less than I am now.

One rate makes the most sense to someone with sense. To use the cities resources you gotta pay that 2.25 period which is reasonble. Once u pay that your good to go anywhere in the city. If you dont have to go that far ,walk. But obviously its better to pay one rate and not worry about paying more. I would sacrifice paying less, knowing that once i get a card i dont have to worry about the rate going up no matter where i need to go


So you're obviously not aware of the CityTicket program and didn't even bother to look it up when I mentioned it--way to show your love for NYC by not supporting or even being aware of the good ideas that the MTA actually has. Pat yourself on the back. Try to piece it together--you use the commuter train systems and have them run more frequently within the city at a steeply discounted price (as long as you are riding between stations within NYC) while making the same stops it usually does within the city. This means a quick straight (or nearly straight) shot from the LIRR or Metro-North station to Penn Station or Grand Central. That's what a super-express is--it's like an express train in the city but much faster. And of course it's a good idea for NYC. You can get more utility out of the same set of tracks taking up the same amount of space in the city. Why wouldn't someone living in Forest Hills or Fordham want to shave off half of their commute time to get to Midtown? What exactly is it that's so offensive about having a better system?

I know of no one that uses metro north besides ppl from Connecticut or upstate. There already is an express train from fordham as grand central is like two or three stops from there. And what do you mean by a steeply discounted price? If the system doesnt use metrocards than it would be meaningless
. And it would basically only be serving harlem residents and ppl who live in fordham.lol

KONY, you talk a lot of talk but you obviously don't keep track of transit matters or make the least bit of effort to help make transit in NYC better than it is now. Turning a blind eye towards the problems with the system and the various solutions that can be brought in from abroad is pure stupidity for someone like you who wants to tout how great the system is. Granted, I'm a transit geek with a MTA map with dots marking every station I've ever been to and explored around (and I'm currently missing about five dozen out of 468 stations), but it sounds like you're not making any effort whatsoever.

Im not blind to nycs transit faults. But acting as if its a POS and other systems were handcrafted by people from the lost civilization of Atlantis doesnt make any sense to me. You havent giving one fault yet, to any of those systems
. You say nyc is one of the best, what exactly does it do right than in your eyes?
^
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Old 03-11-2010, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Terramaria
232 posts, read 177,462 times
Reputation: 204
For the DC area, I'd say the general mix would be this:

Red Line- Predominately white with some asians NW of downtown, with a healthy mix elsewhere, with the blackest section of the line being between Rhode Island Avenue and Takoma. The busiest line of the system.

Green Line- Predominately African-American, especially south of L'Efant Plaza due to running into the historically black Anacostia and into lower Prince George's County. The stretch between Shaw and Prince George's Plaza is also mainly African-American. A bit more of a mix at the extreme north end due to the influx of the University of Maryland along with the beltway commuters.

Blue Line- Predominantly African-American east of the Capitol, as it runs through upper Southeast and finishes in the highly black Prince George's county. It becomes increasingly white west of the Capitol, however.

Yellow Line- Mainly White in the Virginia section with more of a mix in the DC section.

Orange Line- Mainly African-American east of the Capitol (and particularly east of the Stadium-Armory station), a nice mix downtown, then becomes mainly white west of the White House, with a few asians mixing in when we get into Virginia.
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Old 03-11-2010, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Washington D.C. By way of Texas
13,121 posts, read 13,656,931 times
Reputation: 4825
^^ Good Job on DC.
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Old 03-11-2010, 11:04 AM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
10,129 posts, read 12,736,161 times
Reputation: 5286
Quote:
Originally Posted by K.O.N.Y View Post
A 24 hour system is not just "great" it is a technical feat far more impressive than anything you can throw at it. period. Looking at nyc subway map and reaizing that all of that never stops running is more impressive than anything london or paris is throwing. I dont see how one can look at it and not see that. Compare the maps side by side
How is 24-hour service an impressive technical feat? Any system in the world could run their trains 24-hours if they wanted to. I work in transit and work with a lot of different agencies all across the country and OyCrumbler has made very good points about the problem with running 24-hour service; it uses limited resources that could be better used elsewhere. What's gonna benefit the most people, more reliable trains throughout the day or being able to catch a train at 4am?
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Old 03-11-2010, 11:06 AM
 
Location: In the heights
10,826 posts, read 8,822,693 times
Reputation: 4659
Quote:
Originally Posted by K.O.N.Y View Post
It might be you who has comprehension skills. I never said you didnt say nyc is one of the best in the world. But you continue to bash it and big up european systems as if they were flawless when clearly their not, your not the only person whos traveled. Others that have been to europe clearly state that some of ya are making it more than what it is
Obviously, you're not one of the ones who've been to Europe or Asia, so why should you even try to talk with any authority? I guess you read NYC is one of the best in the world and couldn't comprehend what that implies. Of course I bring up the reasons why other systems are good--specifically the ones I would like NYC to import. Plus, I haven't mentioned anything about other system's being flawless or even implied that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K.O.N.Y View Post
A 24 hour system is not just "great" it is a technical feat far more impressive than anything you can throw at it. period. Looking at nyc subway map and reaizing that all of that never stops running is more impressive than anything london or paris is throwing. I dont see how one can look at it and not see that. Compare the maps side by side
How is a decision to take 24 hour service used by relatively few instead of good routine maintenance a technical feat? If it was 24 hour service and it featured fantastic on-time performance without (partially) costing MTA its fiscal health, then yes, that that would be a technical feat. London, Paris, Berlin, Tokyo, Moscow, etc. could technically do the same (it would not be a radical technical feat for them to just constantly operate trains until service has to be rerouted for routine maintenance or to run them until something happens and the line is down for not-so-routine maintenance--rather, it'd be a political feat once people started complaining about the conditions and costs of the rail and stations). Think of the trade-off you're getting--everyone who doesn't routinely use the night trains (and the difference between the MTA's rail service hours and those of others in the world are usually about 4 to 5 hours of service when most people aren't riding and when the commute time during the wee hours for NYC are significantly longer due to many trains no longer running express and having longer wait intervals) is massively subsidizing time and money (money that can go to improved and more timely service, more expansions, cheaper fares, some shielding from economic shocks to the system) to the relatively few who do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K.O.N.Y View Post
A car or a taxi is exactly that- a car or a taxi. Where talking about bus. Dont insult my intelligence by saying a bus can get from the bronx to far rockaway faster than a train in the wee hours of the morning. The thing your not getting through to your noggin, is that nyc is a five borough system. If we were just talking manhattan than i'd give it to you, but where not. So still your persistance with this whole bus thing remains laughable
Cars and taxis are to give you an example of how much transit on surface roads can be in the twilight than during the day. A bus can get from the Bronx to the Far Rockaway faster than a train if it actually fully implemented any of what I said and took the expressways. Use your head. Rails are not magically faster. They are not made of magic. They really aren't. They're good because they get rid of and avoid the daytime congestion, but if you operated a bus with limited stops (the same way you operate rail stations rather than the local buses that make a good half-dozen stops for every two the rail stations do) and they were given the green light at every intersection when there is no traffic to speak of, then yes, it can be comparable. Also, what's the percentage of people going from the Bronx to Far Rockaway. Are you sure you're choosing reasonable examples that actually mimic the usage patterns of the trains or is this nigh-useless abstraction on your part to prove a point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by K.O.N.Y View Post
One rate makes the most sense to someone with sense. To use the cities resources you gotta pay that 2.25 period which is reasonble. Once u pay that your good to go anywhere in the city. If you dont have to go that far ,walk. But obviously its better to pay one rate and not worry about paying more. I would sacrifice paying less, knowing that once i get a card i dont have to worry about the rate going up no matter where i need to go
Rates go up anyhow due to the bad fiscal health of the MTA. You aren't shielded from that. It's a reasonable price we pay in NYC, but the thing is whether or not it's the better idea. The smart cards (which is supposedly going to be in mass use in NYC sometime soon) that a lot of other systems have make it painless. It's not like I was constantly worried about the rates when I was using the other systems since most of the difference in costs were negligible. It doesn't seem like an advantage one way or another because it certainly hasn't really curbed where I went with systems elsewhere neither did it do much for the natives living in those various places.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K.O.N.Y View Post
I know of no one that uses metro north besides ppl from Connecticut or upstate. There already is an express train from fordham as grand central is like two or three stops from there. And what do you mean by a steeply discounted price? If the system doesnt use metrocards than it would be meaningless. And it would basically only be serving harlem residents and ppl who live in fordham.lol
You know of no one who uses Metro-North or LIRR within the city because the city hasn't really promoted the CityTicket program and its currently limited in scope. I doubt people in Harlem would find it useful since they almost already have a straight shot with the 4/5/6. However, if you actually knew the geography of your own city, you'd see there are a lot of other Metro-North stations within the city's borders and some of them (emphasis for you) are in communities poorly served by the subway. Have you ever heard of Riverdale, Spuyten Duyvil, Marble Hill, University Heights, Morris Heights, Tremont, Williamsbridge, or Woodlawn? Even more important would be the LIRR in Queens where there are many communities within reach of a LIRR station, but quite a distance from any subway lines. This would be along with being able to offer superexpress trains from deep within both Brooklyn and Queens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K.O.N.Y View Post
Im not blind to nycs transit faults. But acting as if its a POS and other systems were handcrafted by people from the lost civilization of Atlantis doesnt make any sense to me. You havent giving one fault yet, to any of those systems. You say nyc is one of the best, what exactly does it do right than in your eyes?
No one's saying that NYC's is a POS. What is a POS is how often it seems to be late (the worst of which 48% on time 1 train or the appalling 17% on time for the G train? Do you think this would be acceptable in Tokyo)--it will take you to where you need to be, but not necessarily at the pace that it says it would. I've mentioned how great express trains are, and that 24 hour service is great (though a trade-off). In other topics I've mentioned how expansive and affordable it is. Obviously, some of the same problems that plague the MTA can plague other systems as well. You are being neurotic by taking any criticism of the system or any favorable remarks about other systems as if they were an attack on NYC. Furthermore, why are we even taking you seriously? You don't seem to be well aware of transit matters, and I'm not sure if you've ever used a major system aside from the MTA's (maybe even in the US).

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 03-11-2010 at 11:40 AM..
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Old 03-11-2010, 11:08 AM
 
Location: THE THRONE aka-New York City
3,012 posts, read 3,262,861 times
Reputation: 1092
Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
How is 24-hour service an impressive technical feat? Any system in the world could run their trains 24-hours if they wanted to. I work in transit and work with a lot of different agencies all across the country and OyCrumbler has made very good points about the problem with running 24-hour service; it uses limited resources that could be better used elsewhere. What's gonna benefit the most people, more reliable trains throughout the day or being able to catch a train at 4am?
U work in transit where? san diego. Thats not even in the same dimension as nycs transit system. The misconception being presented here is that nycs transit is not efficient....it is and its 24/7. IF other countries can do it, than do it. Forget the could of,should of, would of's of the matter.
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Old 03-11-2010, 11:17 AM
 
5,231 posts, read 9,020,828 times
Reputation: 2316
Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
How is 24-hour service an impressive technical feat? Any system in the world could run their trains 24-hours if they wanted to. I work in transit and work with a lot of different agencies all across the country and OyCrumbler has made very good points about the problem with running 24-hour service; it uses limited resources that could be better used elsewhere. What's gonna benefit the most people, more reliable trains throughout the day or being able to catch a train at 4am?
About 10 years ago, the Twin Cities introduced about 10 24-hour bus lines. We are now down to about 4. The LRT line stops running between approx. 2 am and 4 am every day.
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Old 03-11-2010, 11:35 AM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
10,129 posts, read 12,736,161 times
Reputation: 5286
Quote:
Originally Posted by K.O.N.Y View Post
U work in transit where? san diego. Thats not even in the same dimension as nycs transit system.
What does that have to do with what I said? I was NEVER comparing San Diego's transit to NYC's. So you have absolutely nothing of substance to say so you throw some BS line about SD transit comparing it to NYC transit, unbelievable how you continue to make yourself look ridiculous and clueless. And I said I work in the private sector with transit systems across the country, including those on the east coast.
Quote:
The misconception being presented here is that nycs transit is not efficient....it is and its 24/7. IF other countries can do it, than do it. Forget the could of,should of, would of's of the matter.
You completely missed the point AGAIN. NYC running a 24-hour system is not any sort of technical feat that any other transit system can't do. It's a great thing to have but considering their budget and service issues, it is somewhat a bad use of limited resources.

You're incredibly sensitive to any sort of criticism of NYC and it's subway and simply cannot look at something objectively. Grow some thicker skin and get a clue already.
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Old 03-11-2010, 11:37 AM
 
Location: In the heights
10,826 posts, read 8,822,693 times
Reputation: 4659
Quote:
Originally Posted by K.O.N.Y View Post
U work in transit where? san diego. Thats not even in the same dimension as nycs transit system. The misconception being presented here is that nycs transit is not efficient....it is and its 24/7. IF other countries can do it, than do it. Forget the could of,should of, would of's of the matter.
Right, because people in the industry don't actually know more than the system they currently work for. Only someone like KONY who is only familiar with NYC's system, but doesn't actually read up on any transit matters both within NYC or outside has the real truth on this. This is pretty embarrassing.
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