U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
 
Old 02-11-2011, 01:42 AM
 
Location: Bryte, CA
1,963 posts, read 2,835,334 times
Reputation: 1321

Advertisements

Downtown areas tend to fall short of grocery stores due to the high cost. In the distant past it wasn't much of an issue because grocery stores were small and it was easy to find the space to lease that met the size requirements. Today most people will not shop at a small grocery store. There is just something about the psychology behind a large store. My theory is people think because it is bigger there is a better selection. Finding large space for retail is difficult and very expensive in downtown areas. Grocery stores have very tight profit margins. Unless they find a large place where they will have a lot of business during all operating hours, they aren't going to have any interest in opening a store.
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-11-2011, 02:04 AM
 
2,863 posts, read 2,146,063 times
Reputation: 3543
So far paper money are quite detached from the realities of physical world. Sooner or later the only currency will remain - unit of energy. As soon as that would happen human development patterns will align themselves with natural ways of minimizing energy expenditures to run things vs minimizing amount of $ to run things. What is more energy viable, a city or a suburb. It depends on many factors. One thing for sure mega cities are 100% off of the table as mega energy hogs. Some suburbs can be salvaged as villages though.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-11-2011, 02:15 AM
 
16,448 posts, read 10,793,196 times
Reputation: 9208
Thousands of people are refusing to make their mortgage payments and living "rent free" for 500 days or so before they get evicted. Why not just let our tens of thousands of homeless (soon to be many more) squat in these empty housing units?
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-11-2011, 08:02 AM
 
551 posts, read 580,989 times
Reputation: 423
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
So far paper money are quite detached from the realities of physical world. Sooner or later the only currency will remain - unit of energy. As soon as that would happen human development patterns will align themselves with natural ways of minimizing energy expenditures to run things vs minimizing amount of $ to run things. What is more energy viable, a city or a suburb. It depends on many factors. One thing for sure mega cities are 100% off of the table as mega energy hogs. Some suburbs can be salvaged as villages though.
I thought that megacities especially New York City are much greener and consume much less energy per capita than any suburb does. New York City may consume more energy, but if you took the same amount of people living in the suburb as NYC then they'd all overall consume MUCH more energy than the overall combined energy usage that NYC has.

NYC is the Greenest City in America
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-11-2011, 08:13 AM
Status: "60th anniversary of the polio vaccine! Hail to Pitt!" (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
70,043 posts, read 60,574,028 times
Reputation: 20191
Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
Do Cook's Fresh Market or the Whole Foods on Capitol Hill not count as "downtown Denver"?

denver, co - Google Maps

At least from a cursory Google-search, it seems like there are a few stores that sell food, either small convenience stores or specialty markets and a couple of general grocers; not a lot in the way of a suburban-style supermarket, but it's not a suburban-style environment.

In my neighborhood, we have one full-sized grocery store, a discount grocer a few blocks farther away, a couple of specialty deli/markets and small ethnic groceries (mostly Asian), and every couple of blocks there is a small corner market--some are basically just liquor stores/convenience stores, but some have a surprising array of products. Add the farmer's markets and the natural foods co-op and it adds up to quite a bit within a two-mile radius.
Not in the opinion of most people on the Denver forum, where this is a topic of discussion at times. The downtown residential area is "LoDo". I'm not familiar with Cook's. I'd guess it's not very big. I don't know too many people who want to shop regularly at the 7-11. Now you're going to argue that a liquor store is really a grocery store? There are people who could get all their daily sustenance from a liquor store, but I don't think their diets would pass for "healthy living".

Last edited by Katiana; 02-11-2011 at 08:29 AM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-11-2011, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Western Massachusetts
28,594 posts, read 14,779,430 times
Reputation: 9116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Not in the opinion of most people on the Denver forum, where this is a topic of discussion at times. The downtown residential area is "LoDo". I'm not familiar with Cook's. I'd guess it's not very big. I don't know too many people who want to shop regularly at the 7-11. Now you're going to argue that a liquor store is really a grocery store? There are people who could get all their daily sustenance from a liquor store, but I don't think their diets would pass for "healthy living".
No, he mentioned liquor stores /convenience stores as the less useful grocery store nearby. There was no mention of 7-11.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-11-2011, 09:36 AM
 
2,863 posts, read 2,146,063 times
Reputation: 3543
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKFire108 View Post
I thought that megacities especially New York City are much greener and consume much less energy per capita than any suburb does. New York City may consume more energy, but if you took the same amount of people living in the suburb as NYC then they'd all overall consume MUCH more energy than the overall combined energy usage that NYC has.

NYC is the Greenest City in America
It takes enormous amount of trucking/shipping/flying to keep NYC fed, clothed & sheltered. You can think about it in the terms of an area required to keep NYC alive. It's much greater than the area required to maintain a suburb. It means energy & extended infrastructure. Then comes the issue of waste disposal or rather recycling, especially "organic" waste. The industrial sequence "fossils - mineral fertilizers - food - dumpster" will be getting more and more expensive as we go. Modified suburbs can recycle their food left overs in the least energy intensive way "compost pile - garden spot". Then comes an issue of what NYC has to offer in exchange for all that food&clothing which means inevitable shipping things out. Since an area immediately surrounding NYC cannot absorb that outflow, it means even more energy and extended infrastructure. To ship something out, you need to ship something in and so on. Yeah, I'll admit, NYC doesn't produce a squat worth of mentioning except mountains of garbage, so NYC is not a good example of a necessity of "ship in - ship out" global network, but economy of superfluous high end services on which NYC subsists, demanding top pay & top consumption levels will simply crumble in a more resource scarce world. For the shape of the things to come just look at third world mega cities which don't have a luxury of high end service economy to feed, shelter, transport and employ their hungry, markedly unhealthy people.


A network of smaller towns/cities/villages can be "localized" to minimize dependence on the outside "cells". Bulk of exchange would occur between neighboring "cells".

Yes, logic paper money mega corporate Capitalism demands extreme centralization and concentration of people and production forces in a few major cities. But the time will come when paper money capitalism will face an ugly energy&resource constraints. As much as ruling elites would like to keep dispossessed locked in a few mega slums, it may become energetically impossible at some point in the future (without barbed wire and death squads, that is).

Last edited by RememberMee; 02-11-2011 at 10:27 AM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-11-2011, 10:18 AM
 
Location: Western Massachusetts
28,594 posts, read 14,779,430 times
Reputation: 9116
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
It takes enormous amount of trucking/shipping/flying to keep NYC fed, clothed & sheltered. You can think about it in the terms of an area required to keep NYC alive. It's much greater than the area required to maintain a suburb. It means energy & extended infrastructure. Then comes the issue of waste disposal or rather recycling, especially "organic" waste. The industrial sequence "fossils - mineral fertilizers - food - dumpster" will be getting more and more expensive as we go. Modified suburbs can recycle their food left overs in the least energy intensive way "compost pile - garden spot". Then comes an issue of what NYC has to offer in exchange for all that food&clothing which means inevitable shipping things out. Since an area immediately surrounding NYC can absorb that outflow, it means even more energy and extended infrastructure. To ship something out, you need to ship something in and so on. Yeah, I'll admit, NYC doesn't produce a squat worth of mentioning except mountains of garbage, so NYC is not a good example of a necessity of "ship in - ship out" global network, but economy of superfluous high end services on which NYC subsists, demanding top pay & top consumption levels will simply crumble in a more resource scarce world. For the shape of the things to come just look at third world mega cities which don't have a luxury of high end service economy to feed, shelter, transport and employ their hungry, markedly unhealthy people.
It would take more trucking / shipping / flying to the same population living in suburbs than in NYC. The energy consumption is lower in the city than its suburbs. I'm not sure how you can argue against that.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-11-2011, 10:27 AM
 
7,592 posts, read 8,483,755 times
Reputation: 3116
I did notice a 7-11 near downtown Denver, but didn't mention it in the post. Cook's doesn't look like a 7-11 type store by any means:

Cook's Fresh Market Denver - Breakfast, Lunch, Dinner - 303-893-2277

Apparently it sells both prepared foods, sit-down meals, and specialty groceries. Doesn't sound like the kind of place to grab a 12 pack of Pabst and a bag of Doritos to me. There is also a Safeway a bit more than a mile from the Colorado state capitol, and Safeway is a traditional full-service grocery store. So while it may not be actually *in* downtown, it's pretty close.

A lot of downtowns don't have supermarkets the way one thinks of them in the suburbs because of land prices, and because a lot of downtowns are woefully underpopulated. Despite the assumption that urban centers have dense populations, remember that a lot of the efforts of the mid-20th century were focused on moving people entirely out of the urban core. So they can be very crowded during the day, and after 5 PM the office workers go home and the whole place becomes a ghost town.

That is the case where I live too: the downtown core proper gets very desolate after 5 PM, except along specific restaurant/entertainment corridors. There is a little housing, but the densest housing is in mixed-use residential neighborhoods just outside the core. And that is where you find the markets, from corner delis to Safeway supermarkets.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-11-2011, 10:31 AM
 
Location: Western Massachusetts
28,594 posts, read 14,779,430 times
Reputation: 9116
It looks like Capitol Hill is the densest mixed-use residential neighborhood right outside the core. "Downtown" Denver looked rather desolate and nothing like the Philly photos from I could gather.
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:
Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top