Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Presumably the vast majority of people who have proximity to bars on their wish list for a neighborhood are not alcoholics. I'm sure some are, but it seems like a massive jump to suggest that most are. Even if one wants to go out to bars or just out to have drinks with dinner, even once or twice a month, it seems like being within walking distance would be a useful thing. I choose my neighborhoods based on proximity to things like restaurants, grocery stores, libraries, and playgrounds; how is including a bar into the mix any different? If it's somewhere you go on even a casual basis, it would be easier to have it nearby. But given the number of DUIs in this country, unfortunately it seems that a lot of heavy drinkers, alcoholics or not, are NOT living within walking distance to the bars.
As far as apartment noise: some of the quietest places we've lived have been in apartment buildings. When we recently lived in a single family house we actually heard MORE noise. I don't think it's necessarily a cut-and-dry answer on the noise front. I don't even think it's fair to say that less dense equals quieter; even that depends on context. As someone noted, areas with a lot of lawns to mow, etc., can be pretty loud. Obviously the very rural areas are going to be a lot quieter, at least from other human noise (although I do remember some VERY loud owls keeping us up one night in one very remote area...), but if it comes down to urban and suburban areas, so much depends on the specific location and context.
Good grief! This has gotten way out of hand. It started (I think) with me saying "alcoholics I have known". I stand by what I learned in grad school; that alcoholics do spend an inordinate amount of time planning their next drinking experience. For some, that can include finding a place to live that is close to a bar. As someone pointed out, one does not have to be an alcoholic to get a DUI, although a lot who do get them probably are alcoholics or on their way there. Not all DUI drivers have been to a bar, either. Some have been drinking at home, theirs or someone else's. This could go on forever.
Your experience with "quiet" apartments is certainly different from the experience of virutally everyone else I know. When my daughter was talking about her noisy new neighbor, I said that's the problem with apt. living. Everyone has to be on the same page. I suggested she complain to the management. She said her BF had gone down to the apt. and asked the tenant to turn down her music. I reminded DD that someone got shot and killed doing that same thing in Denver quite recently, so maybe that's not the smartest thing to do.
I've lived in multiple apartments. They've been VERY quiet. They've also been older buildings, so very well-constructed; I think the noise problems are more likely to come in the newer places, as they're more likely to be built with different techniques and materials. We never heard music, footsteps, any of that. I don't think that's particularly unusual for those living in pre-war solidly built places. Just like houses, "apartment living" can't be summed up as "all apartments are like X." We heard our neighbors more at our last house than we ever did when we had lived in any of our old apartments. They weren't even particularly loud -- it's just that with the windows open and the way the sound traveled in that particular area we heard them more, along with a lot more noisy leafblowers. We lived with it, though, and it certainly didn't negatively impact our quality of life. I was simply pointing out that apartment living doesn't have to mean noisy, and a single family home is no guarantee of quiet, that's all.
I think the alcoholic thing got blown out of proportion because people (or me, anyway) were very confused as to what alcoholism had to do with urban living. There was some pretty shaky logic there. If anything, I assume more alcoholics live in suburbs than in cities simply because more people live in suburbs than in cities. (although yes, I know that there are suburbs with a more urban form).
Again, your apartment experience is quite different from anyone else's that I know. I have lived in apt. buildings of all ages, and I do not find the older ones to be any better built than the new ones as far as noise abatement is concerned. That is in general. Certainly some older buildings are quieter than new ones, and vice versa. The noise issue is simply a factor of piling so many people on top of each other.
As for the alcohol thing, it seems to be pervasive in this forum that people want to live near bars. The funny thing is, the last time I lived within a true short walk a bar was when I lived in the dorms in college! Go figure. Even when I lived in the university section of Pittsburgh, and in a college town, Champaign-Urbana, IL, I wasn't *that* close to a bar, at least 1/2 mile or so.
I was talking about this with DH, who doesn't participate in CD. You may remember him as the guy who said to borrow some milk if you ran out and needed it right now. He said, "Why would you want to live close to a bar, anyway?". Now, neither of us are teetotalers, but this is not an issue that we ever felt was important when selecting a place to live.
Well, I could just as easily say that your friends' apartment experience has been different than those of most of my friends. How "old" are these old buildings you're talking about? Denver is a pretty young city, and while I'm sure there are plenty of older ones around, I'm also assuming (although could be wrong) that the majority are post-war. I suppose materials could vary by region, too, and maybe that's the factor more than age. The ones I've lived in have mostly been grand old 1920s concrete structures with plaster walls, and there has been virtually NO noise from either side or from above. The only noise came from outside, and we could control that by closing the windows, same as with a free standing house.
I wouldn't specifically single out focusing on living by a bar for a neighborhood, but the lack of one would suggest that (a) it's not a complete, fully-functioning neighborhood with the full range of amenities, in which case it's not the kind of neighborhood we prefer, or (b) perhaps it's an ultra-conservative community that frowns upon alcohol for religious reasons, in which case I would also prefer not to live there. I haven't noticed people singling out access to bars at any huge rate on this forum, at least no more than any other neighborhood amenity. (and speaking of both bars AND noise, one of our previous apartments had a bar on the first floor; they had live music, and thanks to the building's construction we never heard a peep.)
I've had several friends in NYC pre-war apartments (at least I assume they were old) and they got complaints from other residents from their noise (mostly loud footsteps). Old buildings can have thin materials, too. The complainers had no fear of their safety by complaining and one suggested (maybe offered to pay) for padded shoes.
Another incident was I heard of their neighbors downstairs feeding so many pigeons in front of the place that they were creating a nuisance and possibly spreading disease. Landlord didn't care, he could easily find another tenant.
@uptown urbanist
You didn't hear people talking or yelling outside the bar? Were your windows always closed?
Well, I could just as easily say that your friends' apartment experience has been different than those of most of my friends. How "old" are these old buildings you're talking about? Denver is a pretty young city, and while I'm sure there are plenty of older ones around, I'm also assuming (although could be wrong) that the majority are post-war. I suppose materials could vary by region, too, and maybe that's the factor more than age. The ones I've lived in have mostly been grand old 1920s concrete structures with plaster walls, and there has been virtually NO noise from either side or from above. The only noise came from outside, and we could control that by closing the windows, same as with a free standing house.
I wouldn't specifically single out focusing on living by a bar for a neighborhood, but the lack of one would suggest that (a) it's not a complete, fully-functioning neighborhood with the full range of amenities, in which case it's not the kind of neighborhood we prefer, or (b) perhaps it's an ultra-conservative community that frowns upon alcohol for religious reasons, in which case I would also prefer not to live there. I haven't noticed people singling out access to bars at any huge rate on this forum, at least no more than any other neighborhood amenity. (and speaking of both bars AND noise, one of our previous apartments had a bar on the first floor; they had live music, and thanks to the building's construction we never heard a peep.)
Denver might be young, but not much younger than Minneapolis, I would think. It has lots of old 20s buildings in the downtown area. Also, I haven't always lived here, nor have my friends.
I did a search on this forum and found a number of posts referring to wanting to live near bars, but I deleted them, deciding it wasn't really necessary to single people out who want to live near bars. For the same reasons that nei gave, I prefer not to live near a bar. I'd rather live near a park.
Denver might be young, but not much younger than Minneapolis, I would think. It has lots of old 20s buildings in the downtown area. Also, I haven't always lived here, nor have my friends.
I did a search on this forum and found a number of posts referring to wanting to live near bars, but I deleted them, deciding it wasn't really necessary to single people out who want to live near bars. For the same reasons that nei gave, I prefer not to live near a bar. I'd rather live near a park.
Most of the apartments I've lived in have been outside of Minneapolis.
And no, we didn't get a lot of noise from the bar. We were up a few stories, and our windows didn't open out directly to the street. My point was that the noise didn't carry within the building itself, as the materials were thick and had sound-insulating properties.
Why should people be embarrassed to say that they want to live near a bar? Nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with going to a bar, and I have a lot of respect for people who factor in practicalities like that into their living decisions. I would rather live near a park, too, but I think a complete neighborhood has room for both parks AND bars. The whole goal would be a neighborhood that offers everything I could ever want, all within walking distance.
In any case, my main point there was that apartment living does not necessarily equal noisy living, just as a single family home doesn't guarantee you peace and quiet.
He said, "Why would you want to live close to a bar, anyway?". Now, neither of us are teetotalers, but this is not an issue that we ever felt was important when selecting a place to live.
of all the things its undesirable to DRIVE home from - a grocery store, a bookstore, a coffeeshop, a workplace, a bar - the bar has to be the one where driving is least desirable. I don't really get whats so confusing about that.
I mean unless you think most people dont go to bars much.
The sheer number of bars, in the suburbs as well as in urban areas, should be enough to disprove that.
Of the alcoholics I have known, some have wanted to be within walking distance of a bar. You can drive sober to the liquor store, take the stuff home and get drunk. But if you get drunk in the bar, you can get in an accident and kill yourself and/or 10 other people.
To the bold: I know those people too. They're the cast from "Cheers", and they even know your name!
For the rest let's have a comparison:
Alcoholic in the Suburbs: Gets booze at the store and drinks at home. Maybe wants to live near a bar/liquor store for convenience. The person starts off sober diriving to the store to buy booze. Returns; drinks at home. Runs out of booze. Unless this person lives by a bar/liquor store or has the time/patience/energy to walk to the nearest establishment, the person is going to drive to get more booze, sober or not.
Alcoholic in an Dense, Urban environment: Gets booze at the store and drinks at home. Maybe wants to live near a bar/liquor store for convenience. The person starts off the day sober or drunk and walks out of their residence in which the building might have a store in it with booze already. Or a store might be across the street. Or the end of the street. Or one train/bus stop down. The person drinks at home and when they run out they repeat the same process. Not once is a car necessary while sober or intoxicated.
"Social" Drinkers in the suburbs: The Designated Driver is the first choice. After that, there might be taxis that service a town/suburb. Those are the only two options a "Social" Drinker has at their disposal for a night out at bars and the like... Unless drinking and driving is acceptable in suburban/rural areas?
"Social" Drinkers in dense urban areas: The Designated Driver is an option. In fact, it is many options. It could be a friend, a cab driver, a bus driver, a train operator. But walking or riding a bike is not out of the question either, especially if the person in question might really only have had one or two, while everyone else goes to town.
I've had the pleasure of drinking in suburban settings/areas ()
I've also had the pleasure of drinking in urban settings/areas ()
There will always be alcoholics and social drinkers in every type of residential environment, but when considering the drunk driving factor, I think living in a dense urban environment is safer for everyone involved.
^^I think it started when I mentioned "alcoholics I have known" who like to live near bars. A lot of people disagreed with me that the alcoholics I have personally known, including some family members wanted to live near bars. This is a problem I have with all of CD; someone can express something from their own personal experience and somebody or somebodies will tell them they're wrong, they didn't have that experience.
And I read another post that explained why you brought up alcoholics. That's fine. For the italics I don't think that is special to City-Data. I think that's a "humanity" type of deal.
*And I am apparently really late to this discussion*
BUT....
The thread is about how living in a dense community could save you money. Bringing up alcoholics in a thread about dense communities is going to give people the impression that you want to factor in Alcoholics in "dense" and "non-dense" living environments. Walking to buy booze means not spending money to buy gas to drive and get it.
Just some thoughts.
Last edited by A2DAC1985; 11-02-2011 at 10:07 AM..
Reason: *caught up to the end of the thread
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
)
)
