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I was just wondering what would make a city feel more urban in your opinion the urban fabric or the density of the city. Case in point Miami has density but is kind of lacking in the urban fabric department where as Detroit has the urban fabric but lacking density, so my question is which would be more important to you for an urban/big city feel.
I was just wondering what would make a city feel more urban in your opinion the urban fabric or the density of the city. Case in point Miami has density but is kind of lacking in the urban fabric department where as Detroit has the urban fabric but lacking density, so my question is which would be more important to you for an urban/big city feel.
i would say density as an immediate gauge, but with an urban fabric for a city like detroit, its possibilities are endless.
Good question. It is some combination of both, I think there is some threshold of density required with continuity to get the street level feel, maybe it is 10 or 12K, then beyond that it goes to the fabric, so with an urban fabric, to me it is usually less homogeneous and more mixed in use. Then the additional population density can intensify the feel.
Although there are smaller towns with a density less that have a urban feel of sorts with less desnsity but not the continuity. Maybe the sustained continuity also factors.
Last edited by kidphilly; 02-24-2011 at 08:59 AM..
I would say density is the first step, because is it enforceable. With densities the 10k area urban fabric will evolve around the increased presence of people.
Neither. Transportation systems are what will drive both the density and the form of the urban fabric. If you base the neighborhood around the car, density will be limited by the need for multiple parking spaces for each vehicle--this requires more land and makes buildings more expensive. You can mandate all the density you like in your zoning code, if it doesn't meet up what the transportation mode can deliver it will never happen--you'll have vacant lots or vacant buildings in your "designated urban high-rise" zone for decades.
Neither. Transportation systems are what will drive both the density and the form of the urban fabric. If you base the neighborhood around the car, density will be limited by the need for multiple parking spaces for each vehicle--this requires more land and makes buildings more expensive. You can mandate all the density you like in your zoning code, if it doesn't meet up what the transportation mode can deliver it will never happen--you'll have vacant lots or vacant buildings in your "designated urban high-rise" zone for decades.
LA is quite high in density, though perhaps not in urban fabric. This is a good article on the need for parking lots does to LA's urban fabric:
The density of its core is similar to Chicago, SF, or Philly and might be higher if you go by number of people living in dense neighborhoods (25,000 per square mile?). It's interesting that not very far from the city the density declines to 3 people per square mile.
LA is quite high in density, though perhaps not in urban fabric. This is a good article on the need for parking lots does to LA's urban fabric:.
didnt get the PDF to open, but I think the urban fabric of at least some older parts of LA is underestimated.
I first visited LA as a teen, from NY, and found it low density, suburban, auto centric.
I revisited for the first time a few years ago, after having lived in jacksonville Fl and Northern Virginia. We stayed in Santa Monica. What struck me was the street grid, its good urban design, its fairly high level walkability. I dont know if it was that my standards had changed, or that SM is so unusual even for West LA. But I came away with renewed respect for the urbanity of at least parts of LA.
The density of its core is similar to Chicago, SF, or Philly and might be higher if you go by number of people living in dense neighborhoods (25,000 per square mile?). It's interesting that not very far from the city the density declines to 3 people per square mile.
LA's density looks the way it does because of its transportation infrastructure, which was built around streetcars and interurban electric railroads. Even though the streetcars went out of service, the basic structure of the city was already in place--and in the past decade or two, the return of rail transit in Los Angeles has reinforced that urban form. Chicago and San Francisco's cores developed around the same basic transit form (and all three had cable cars!) so of course they're going to look similar. And all had to deal with the new need for auto parking lots in mid-century, even in cities that didn't totally abandon the streetcar, so all had to demolish city blocks and make parking lots--with predictable effects on urban fabric.
LA's density looks the way it does because of its transportation infrastructure, which was built around streetcars and interurban electric railroads. Even though the streetcars went out of service, the basic structure of the city was already in place--and in the past decade or two, the return of rail transit in Los Angeles has reinforced that urban form. Chicago and San Francisco's cores developed around the same basic transit form (and all three had cable cars!) so of course they're going to look similar. And all had to deal with the new need for auto parking lots in mid-century, even in cities that didn't totally abandon the streetcar, so all had to demolish city blocks and make parking lots--with predictable effects on urban fabric.
I didn't notice many parking lots or garages in San Francisco. Isn't Chicago more built on subways than streetcars? I thought LA had such an extensive streetcar network at the time to accommodate the low density. I wonder what the population density of those neighborhoods were back then.
Before I started reading about cities, I never heard of streetcar suburbs. I don't think the NYC metro really has them. I became interested in streetcar suburbs after visiting Brookline, MA; it has a streetcar line running by the main commercial streets and the density and development followed. It never got annexed by Boston because the locals (in the 1860s) didn't want to share their city with poor Irish. In some previous threads I kept arguing that urban boundaries say little on where an area is city or suburb and was using Boston as an example. I think LA might be a good example, too. The city shape is really strange-looking and there doesn't seem to be much logic on why some places were annexed and others weren't. For example, Venice is part of LA but Santa Monica isn't.
Does Manhattan have enough urban fabric to suit you? If you have enough density, the urban fabrics take care of itself. Last summer I read a book that pointed out that Manhattan is one of the most ecologically sound human habitats in existence. Because of essential goods and services being within walking distance and a superb public mass-transit system (and extremely small houses/apartments by U.S. standards) Manhattanites use less gasoline per capita than any other place in America and by extension they produce less pollution than is the U.S. norm.
Urban fabric depends on community attachments and when your population density is high enough you cannot help but form community attachments with people outside of your household, school, workplace, church etcetera.
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