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Old 05-13-2011, 02:20 AM
 
Location: Northern Colorado
4,932 posts, read 12,761,515 times
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I think the Baby Boomers liked the McMansions.

I think there are usually 3 forms of municipalities

cities (highly populated town)
suburbs (suburban cities that neighbor a larger city)
towns (low density and low population city)

census designated communities (community with no self-governing powers)

No matter where you live, you are going to see sprawl along all major freeways and arterial roadways.

Santa Cruz, Berkeley, and Oakland are the only cities in the Bay Area I have known to dramastically reduce sprawl. Davis for the longest kept out sprawl, but now they have a Target shopping center and a small retail plaza in their downtown.

I think many liberal areas you will see reduced amounts of sprawl. Some college towns have a balance of liberal and conservative, so there is more sprawl.
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Old 05-13-2011, 08:35 AM
 
8,673 posts, read 17,282,794 times
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the city: If it is downtown, it isn't sprawl. The Target shopping center and retail plaza in downtown Davis are not sprawl, they are infill. The whole point of sprawl is that it spreads outward.

I think you're having difficulty with the concept.
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Old 05-13-2011, 09:29 AM
 
Location: MO->MI->CA->TX->MA
7,032 posts, read 14,483,506 times
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I'm not against sprawl per se if it means it'll decrease my cost of living..

I just don't think it's worth it if it means much higher traffic and commute times.
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Old 05-13-2011, 01:43 PM
 
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More sprawl inevitably means more traffic and longer commute times--suburban sprawl is pretty much locked into the automobile/highway system. As to your cost of living, is it still worth it if it makes you less healthy, increases your taxes, and increases the cost of living for others?
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Old 05-13-2011, 02:57 PM
 
1,553 posts, read 2,448,134 times
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Here's why. It neglects the urban areas and particularly the inner city poor.
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Old 05-14-2011, 02:04 PM
 
Location: The Lakes
2,368 posts, read 5,105,917 times
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It destroyed the "community" aspect of American suburbs. Makes people distant from one another. Weakens local identity. Inefficient public goods provision. Environmentally harmful. Hurts consumers when oil spikes.

The list is endless.

The primary measurement of sprawl is not the direction it is spreading, but the density.
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Old 05-14-2011, 02:09 PM
 
Location: The Lakes
2,368 posts, read 5,105,917 times
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But seriously... When was the last time any of you exurban folks walked to the store? I know my dad used to do it all the time growing up in suburban Louisville and Chicago. I don't even have anything against suburbs. Exurban development is what will kill American cities and end American lives. When was the last time you walked somewhere from your exurban home and saw someone else on the sidewalk and MET them? When was the last time you MET anyone you weren't forced into a situation with? Americans are all so afraid of one another we've changed our cities to distance ourselves from ourselves.
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Old 05-15-2011, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Northern Colorado
4,932 posts, read 12,761,515 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
the city: If it is downtown, it isn't sprawl. The Target shopping center and retail plaza in downtown Davis are not sprawl, they are infill. The whole point of sprawl is that it spreads outward.

I think you're having difficulty with the concept.
Perhaps.

I would not enjoy living in Davis, Santa Cruz, or Berkeley. Santa Cruz is okay because the mall is in Capitola and other strip malls are in neighboring cities. Berkeley has a couple high end stores, but for the most part it has no retail shopping.

The way my town developed is that we had downtown which contained Sears, Woolsworth, and Montgomery Ward. Montgomery Ward eventually became JCPenneys and then became Ross. Woolsworth became several small shops. Sears became Copeland Sports and then Sport's Authority. By the time of the 1960s, we had a shopping center with a movie theater and Sears and it was farther from downtown but I am not sure it would be sprawl. Then, in the 1980s we got the Central Coast Mall with Gottschalks and Embassey Suites. Then in the 1990s, the movie theater at the 60s shopping center closed and a new movie theater went into downtown. Then downtown started to be revitalized and the mall died because the city decided they did not want a third anchor to save the mall. The mall then became shopping center number 2 that now includes Forever 21 Super Store and Embassey Suites. In 2006, shopping center number 3 was built next to the current shopping centers on a different road and includes Costco and Home Depot. In 2011, we got a Target shopping center next to shopping center 3. Now, there are plans for one more shopping center between shopping center 2 and 4.

This shopping center is rumored to be home to Macy's, several restaurants, and other small big box stores. This final shopping center has legal entitlement to be built through the county, but is surrounded by city boundaries. It is possible however for this shopping center to sabotaged if they lost Macy's to another developer because there is land next to shopping center 4 for more development.

Air pollution is still pretty low and traffic is better than most parts of the state. And there are some suburban homes in this area, but there is no other space to build shopping centers and homes other than on the southern border of the town.

The lack of a mall and no Wal-Mart could be why our downtown still has some local businesses. The biggest killer to local businesses in downtown though is national chains going downtown and honestly I think national chains in downtown is a dumb idea unless it's a food place. But I guess tourists, and needing these stores to draw people to downtown is needed.

And here you can see where all the development is:

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&bi...-8&sa=N&tab=wl
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Old 05-15-2011, 08:36 PM
 
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I like sprawl. I love commuting and the feeling of leaving the city and entering a suburb that also has the things I need in it. I like using public transportation when I need to as well.
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Old 05-15-2011, 09:55 PM
 
8,673 posts, read 17,282,794 times
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Berkeley has no retail shopping? I find that laughable--there is a ton of shopping to be done in Berkeley. Some of my favorite bookstores, record stores, hobby shops, vintage-clothing stores, boutiques, and comic shops in the world are in Berkeley, within walking distance of the university and the BART station, along Shattuck and University and Telegraph and San Pablo. Admittedly I don't go there very often, because I can find most of that stuff without a trip to Berkeley nowadays, but I still like to visit.

I think you're mixing up the issue of sprawl (development being spread out over a wide area) with the issue of big-box stores destroying local businesses. A Target opening in a downtown may have a negative effect on locally owned businesses, but it isn't sprawl, because it is being built in an already developed area, rather than expanding outward into greenfield. As to the one in Davis, I don't know if downtown Davis has been that negatively affected by Target's presence. Sometimes a chain store in a downtown can actually draw more business to local businesses that don't fill the same market niche--and a lot of downtown Davis is specialty shops, boutiques and restaurants, art galleries and entertainment venues, that don't necessarily sell the same things Target does.

But in both Davis and Berkeley, the central city is a lot more than just a shopping area--they are also residential neighborhoods, and job centers for jobs other than retail. An urban neighborhood is a mixed-use neighborhood.
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