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Old 04-20-2011, 09:29 PM
 
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Lawrence Solomon: Let private enterprise build subways | FP Comment | Financial Post
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Old 04-20-2011, 09:55 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Western Massachusetts
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"he could auction off different routes, as did London, where contracting out was an instant success — the quality of service soared and costs dropped as companies offering everything from minibuses and double-deckers to subways and later trams competed for customers."

London was a privation success?! The London subway was taken back by the city under the new Conservative mayor. Makes me skeptical of the entire article.

London Underground’s Privatization Experiment Dead as Remaining PPP is Bought Out « The Transport Politic
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Old 04-20-2011, 10:37 PM
 
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Unlike Canada's experience, American public transit systems weren't "politicized and nationalized," they were driven out of business by public-funded streets, and the ones that hadn't gone under by mid-century were handed off to local governments to deal with as a way to provide transportation for the poor and indigent who couldn't afford cars. Unless we stop subsidizing automobiles via public roads and other methods, public transit will not be a money-making option for the private sector, except in very specialized applications, mostly ones that also use the same roads as cars.
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Old 04-21-2011, 12:01 AM
 
2,046 posts, read 4,942,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
Unlike Canada's experience, American public transit systems weren't "politicized and nationalized," they were driven out of business by public-funded streets, and the ones that hadn't gone under by mid-century were handed off to local governments to deal with as a way to provide transportation for the poor and indigent who couldn't afford cars. Unless we stop subsidizing automobiles via public roads and other methods, public transit will not be a money-making option for the private sector, except in very specialized applications, mostly ones that also use the same roads as cars.
what does subsidizing roads have to do with public transit being profitable???
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Old 04-21-2011, 02:16 AM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
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The immense cost of building subways means no private company is going to want to do it without subsidies so large that the whole thing should be publicly owned anyway.
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Old 04-21-2011, 08:04 AM
 
Location: Youngstown, Oh.
5,501 posts, read 9,462,630 times
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Originally Posted by qjbusmaster View Post
what does subsidizing roads have to do with public transit being profitable???
Maybe wburg will go into more detail. But the short answer as I see it is: if roads weren't subsidized, it would be a lot more expensive to drive, and more people would then choose to use mass-transit.
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Old 04-21-2011, 10:49 PM
 
8,680 posts, read 17,236,454 times
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Originally Posted by qjbusmaster View Post
what does subsidizing roads have to do with public transit being profitable???
Subsidizing roads (among other subsidies) make automobile ownership far more economical, and encourages people to buy cars and drive.

100 or so years ago, most roads were dirt--an "improved" road was covered with gravel. Getting around in a car was possible, but it was far more of an adventure than it was today, even going between comparatively nearby cities. Top speed in a car was maybe 20-25 miles per hour, assuming dry conditions, while a locomotive or electric interurban could whiz by at 60 MPH or better. Even city streets weren't all that hospitable to the automobile.

Public subsidy of roads, and improved road surfaces like macadam, concrete and asphalt, made getting around in rubber-tired cars easier. In effect, tax funds were used to facilitate getting around in cars.

The same did not apply to railroad and streetcar companies. They had to pay for the maintenance of their own right-of-way, and streetcar companies paid cities for the right to operate on city streets--plus they were often required to maintain the street adjacent to the right of way!

At the time, railroad and streetcar companies were very politically unpopular, and government-funded roads (along with the private automobile) were considered a way to break the power of business monopolies. Of course, they ended up creating an even more powerful monopoly, and destroyed the private business of providing public transit so thoroughly that nowadays most people don't even believe that the streetcars and passenger trains they see in old pictures were once operated, for profit, by private companies.
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Old 04-22-2011, 05:49 AM
 
Location: NYC
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Continuing on WBurg's thought, I found a great paragraph in Matt Dellinger's great book, "Interstate 69: The Unfinished History of the Last Great American Highway," which addresses the I-69 debate but also the history of roadbuilding in the U.S.

"Just as the building of the interstates changed the face of the country, the establishment of the Highway Trust Fund helped create a uniquely American attitude about highways. Though several existing turnpikes were grandfathered into the system, tolling was expressly forbidden on new insterstates. Without tolls to pay, Americans grew to love "the open road." But the popular perception of the "freeway" has impaired the driver's appreciation for the direct and indirect costs of driving. It hastened the decline of ticketed rail and transit services and encouraged decentralized development across the landscape. It has led to congestion and has made it politically difficult to raise the gas tax - a move that would be an unwelcome reminder that driving costs money."
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Old 04-22-2011, 09:47 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Western Massachusetts
46,009 posts, read 53,312,555 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HandsUpThumbsDown View Post
Continuing on WBurg's thought, I found a great paragraph in Matt Dellinger's great book, "Interstate 69: The Unfinished History of the Last Great American Highway," which addresses the I-69 debate but also the history of roadbuilding in the U.S.

"Just as the building of the interstates changed the face of the country, the establishment of the Highway Trust Fund helped create a uniquely American attitude about highways. Though several existing turnpikes were grandfathered into the system, tolling was expressly forbidden on new insterstates. Without tolls to pay, Americans grew to love "the open road." But the popular perception of the "freeway" has impaired the driver's appreciation for the direct and indirect costs of driving. It hastened the decline of ticketed rail and transit services and encouraged decentralized development across the landscape. It has led to congestion and has made it politically difficult to raise the gas tax - a move that would be an unwelcome reminder that driving costs money."
They have introduced the highway trust fund with higher gas taxes. The UK doesn't have toll roads either but the gas prices much higher (current 5.18 pounds/ gallon or $8.53 / gallon if you convert with current exchange prices).
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Old 04-22-2011, 11:10 AM
 
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If indeed there are private companies interested in building new subways, let them start with suburban office parks, preferably when they are being developed. A subway line to the airport and to affordable housing reserves would help attract tenants.
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