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Old 04-28-2012, 07:23 AM
 
Location: Chicago
1,312 posts, read 1,861,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
As I recall both from living through the suburbanization of Beaver County, PA in the 60s, and from here in Colorado in the 80s/90s, most of the time the suburbs grew up around existing country roads. However, the roads of the subdivision itself, and the extension of local roads and the building of new ones to serve the subdivisions came during/after the building of the area.
Thanks for proving my point. I notice you didn't say the county mentioned, "just popped up in the middle of a field with no way to easily access them". Country roads had to exist before people could get to those places.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I have a feeling some of you younger posters will look back at the 2010s fifty years from now and laugh at this mania for "light rail" that's going on right now. It's incredibly expensive and incredibly inflexible. I will not be here at that point in time.
So, shouldn't people in your position, you know... stop trying to plan the future for the people who will be around in 50 years? And you know, more importantly, stop trying to plan the future based on a cutting age technology from 1920 that runs on dead dinosaurs?

I will still have to live with the policies and planning that people made long after they themselves died. Is it not enough that the old guard gets its way while alive? It also has to tell me how I should live my life even 50 years after they're dead?

Last edited by nei; 04-28-2012 at 11:04 AM..
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Old 04-28-2012, 07:57 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,259,082 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cisco kid View Post
I never said kids were stupid. But most kids are effected in a powerful way by what they see in the media every single day. That doesn't mean they're necessarily stupid. It just means they're human. Which includes myself. I grew up worshipping fast cars just like most every other American kid is brought up to do. That's a big part of the traditional American dream that people are all raised up on. You want to make the big money so you can get the big house with the white picket fence in the suburbs, get a big car, so on and so forth. That's what we're all taught in school. I started to form a different opinion about that later on in life but when growing up I was very much raised on that materialistic car culture just like everyone else.
The way you were raised, taking your last sentence first, is not the way everyone was raised. My daughters never paid any particular attention to car ads (that I noticed). I can only remember one of them saying one thing about cars. We were in a high school parking lot when she was about 14 and it was full of old cars, of course. She said she wasn't going to drive some crappy old car when she could have one. I told her not to hold her breath about us buying her some late model car. Most of their boyfriends, including their current ones (and they are now in their 20s), have older cars as well.
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Old 04-28-2012, 08:00 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,259,082 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Thanks! Now hoping to keep this closer to the topic...

Yea, I read the wikipedia article and did a hesitate a bit before deciding it was a sensible example. From the article, it seems like most Daybreak isn't complete yet; and a lot of the to-be completed parts of the development could be in the undeveloped area, so at least the development and light rail station is "in sync" with each other. And looking at the google map view, Daybreak appears to be on the fringes of the metro and with a lot of empty to one side of the light rail. I was trying to find an example, not a perfect one but fits in some ways.

I'll withhold judgement on the development until it's completed. I tried streetview, but the views are 5 years old. The shops area is a bit too far from the train station; wouldn't have made sense to put it closer? It's only a 10 minute walk but still seems less than ideal. At least the medical center is adjacent. Maybe not hype-worthy but still an interesting design and something different from a typical suburban development. Variety is nice. And the developers thought the light rail was worthwhile; they offered the transit authority extra money to complete it faster. A park and ride isn't that harmful unless it's huge and becomes an obstacle to walk to or through.

I saw one website hyping Daybreak, giving Gresham, OR as a previous example of a successful TOD development. I visited that town briefly. There was nothing wrong with it; but nothing special. Some apartment complexes and a few office buildings near the train station. Good connecting buses though. There was a small "historic old town" area a short walk away that had a few nice shops but was a bit small and somewhat dead. (I guess where I live is an "old town" too but no one would ever call it that here ) Outside was typical suburban commercial development, together with lots of bike lanes (it is Oregon).

Anyhow, at least the New York City Hudson Yards development I posted seems to be a perfect example of "build transit, first then develop". And developers are already interested, with one (possibly more) 1000+ foot tower proposed. No park and rides whatsoever, and parking being built is minimal as local resident successfully sued to prevent parking being built using the Clean Air law as a pretext (why would they want to eat more car fumes?). Mixed use with a focus on increasing center city office space. For a while I wondered why the city was building an expensive subway line to an area few would have any interest in going, but it clicked to me recently. Though could just be a boondoggle to help connected real estate interests.

Another project similar to the "extending a business district" idea is the London Docklands Railway (mostly elevated light rail). The city built a whole line to service an old industrial port area that it was going to turn into office space. Fun train to ride as a kid.
The paragraph in italics is similar to most of the TOD stuff here in Colorado as well. You may hear a lot of glowing descriptions about Belmar, west of Denver in Lakewood. It is pretty much what you describe in Gresham, except there is no downtown in Lakewood. Within a couple blocks of Belmar is old suburban tract housing.
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Old 04-28-2012, 08:05 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,259,082 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A2DAC1985 View Post
Thanks for proving my point. I notice you didn't say the county mentioned, "just popped up in the middle of a field with no way to easily access them". Country roads had to exist before people could get to those places.
I don't think I proved your point as much as you think. How do you think farmers get their goods to markets w/o roads? Except in the case of designated wilderness areas, all rural areas have roads, to connect "Point A" to "Point B". It is along those roads the suburbs develop.

Quote:
So, shouldn't people in your position, you know... stop trying to plan the future for the people who will be around in 50 years? And you know, more importantly, stop trying to plan the future based on a cutting age technology from 1920 that runs on dead dinosaurs?

I will still have to live with the policies and planning that people made long after they themselves died. Is it not enough that the old guard gets its way while alive? It also has to tell me how I should live my life even 50 years after they're dead?

And people want to talk about the younger generation being self-centered.

Last edited by nei; 04-28-2012 at 10:57 AM.. Reason: rude
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Old 04-28-2012, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Chicago
1,312 posts, read 1,861,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I don't think I proved your point as much as you think. You seem to be part of the cabal on this forum that is opposed to roads, in general. How do you think farmers get their goods to markets w/o roads? Except in the case of designated wilderness areas, all rural areas have roads, to connect "Point A" to "Point B". It is along those roads the suburbs develop.
If you didn't prove my point, tell me how having no roads leads to communities growing? You said things started to pop up around country roads... not in the middle of fields.

I may seem (your opinion) that I'm in a cabal against roads. I'm not. They have their place, like you stated. But I certainly don't believe their place should always be at the very top while anything else is purposefully relegated to the very bottom and treated with utter disdain for just being something different than what other people prefer.

You brought up the fact that you believe in 50 years my opinion will change on rail in this country. You then said that you would not be around in 50 years. You believe rail is incredibly expensive and incredibly limited in its scope.

I believe some things are worth the cost and I believe the limited scope gives focus.

Lets pretend you own a house. You are going to sell your house to me. You believe that having a backyard pool is incredibly expensive and incredibly limited it what it can do. I find both value and purpose in such an expenditure.

You haven't quite moved out yet, but I tell you I'm going to send over some contractors to get measurements for my pool I will build. You object vehemently. You say it's a waste of money and extremely limited in what it can do. I say, "Why do you care? The house will eventually belong to me, because you will leave it and I will own it." You say you don't want a pool in the backyard, its unnecessary. I say it is necessary for me to live the life that I want to live, and once again, why do you care? You aren't going to be around to use it, clean it, keep it maintained. That burden, and all the benefits and drawbacks that come with it, are on me. You still object because even though you're long gone, you still want things to be the way you like them, even if the way you like things is not how myself or my family likes them.

Last edited by nei; 04-28-2012 at 10:58 AM..
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Old 04-28-2012, 08:38 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,259,082 times
Reputation: 35920
I don't think you've ever even visited an agricultural area, let alone lived in one. Beaver County, PA, especially the western part where I lived, had a lot of rural areas with working farms back when I was a kid. Connecting those farms with the cities, e.g. Beaver Falls, New Castle, etc, were, (gasp) roads! As the area suburbanized, these roads became the main drags of the suburbs. The suburbs, however, did extend into the middle of what were, at one time, farmer's fields. The same process is how cities developed, too, but a lot of urbanists like to conveniently forget that.

I lived in Illinois ag country for seven years. There were county roads that connected farms to each other, to the farm towns, and to the cities. Some suburban growth took place along these roads, but most of the homes, again, were built in former cornfields. Some of the little farm towns became suburbs as well.

In the above areas, plus here in Colorado, I have seen roads extended when a subdivision was going up.

I didn't say in 50 years your opinion would change. Go back and re-read my post. Just like the old "urban renewal" projects of the 60s are now looked on with disdain and sometimes even scorn, I think this mania for light rail may be looked at at least with amusement.

None of us knows how many days we have left on earth. I'll leave it at that. And you can wait till you own the damn home to build the pool.
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Old 04-28-2012, 08:45 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,259,082 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HandsUpThumbsDown View Post
Thats pretty unfair. Why can't anyone propose something that is different without being attacked from the generation prior?
Have you never heard of being absurd, in response to someone who is also being absurd? (Although I don't think the previous poster was trying to be absurd; I think he meant every word he said.) I was called a "dinosaur", accused of using "cutting edge 1920 technology" (not even my parents' era), of telling the previous poster how to live his life 50 years after I am dead, etc. If anyone is being unfair, it's not me.

BTW, I think I'll be around at least another 25 years, given my family history. I'm not ready for the nursing home yet.
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Old 04-28-2012, 08:58 AM
 
Location: NYC
7,305 posts, read 13,451,532 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Have you never heard of being absurd, in response to someone who is also being absurd? (Although I don't think the previous poster was trying to be absurd; I think he meant every word he said.) I was called a "dinosaur", accused of using "cutting edge 1920 technology" (not even my parents' era), of telling the previous poster how to live his life 50 years after I am dead, etc. If anyone is being unfair, it's not me.

BTW, I think I'll be around at least another 25 years, given my family history. I'm not ready for the nursing home yet.
You weren't called a dinosaur. Dinosaur was used to describe fossil fuels. "More roads, more roads, more roads" is certainly a 100 year old idea - you don't need to take that personally, it's just a fact. To be ignorant of the costs (all costs - economic, political, environmental, and social costs of the roads only plan) is truly short sighted. I understand both of your frustration on this, but to suggest that anyone who is pro rail is anti road is just silly.
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Old 04-28-2012, 09:11 AM
 
Location: Chicago
1,312 posts, read 1,861,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
(1)I don't think you've ever even visited an agricultural area, let alone lived in one. Beaver County, PA, especially the western part where I lived, had a lot of rural areas with working farms back when I was a kid. (2)Connecting those farms with the cities, e.g. Beaver Falls, New Castle, etc, were, (gasp) roads! As the area suburbanized, these roads became the main drags of the suburbs. (3)The suburbs, however, did extend into the middle of what were, at one time, farmer's fields. The same process is how cities developed, too, but a lot of urbanists like to conveniently forget that.

...(4)Some suburban growth took place along these roads, but most of the homes, again, were built in former cornfields. Some of the little farm towns became suburbs as well.

(5)I didn't say in 50 years your opinion would change. Go back and re-read my post. Just like the old "urban renewal" projects of the 60s are now looked on with disdain and sometimes even scorn, I think this mania for light rail may be looked at at least with amusement.

None of us knows how many days we have left on earth. I'll leave it at that. (6)And you can wait till you own the damn home to build the pool.
1. Ahhh... I forgot. Silly me. I guess I must have not grown up in Indiana. And I guess I didn't live in a little suburban town outside of Indianapolis where it was not unusual for tractors and combines to use the roads like regular vehicles. And I guess I must have been dreaming when some of the kids in high school would drive their farm vehicles to school.

I guess I never drove on county roads and learned what E 450 N & 175 E means and how to use that to tell where you are from the center of town, in miles of course.

2. You mean, gasp!, paths for a mode of transportation to utilize?!?! Guess what? If rail was there instead of roads, farmers could have used those. And guess what else? If roads were built in conjunction with the rail, the farmers would have had MORE ways to go about their lives and business.

3. My family used to live on the North side of Indianapolis when it was, literally, cornfields. The only thing around for an appreciable distance was the tiny condo (think 8 spots) "development" where we lived and a gas station across the street. That. Was. It. Oh, I also forgot to mention there was a road. Look at that intersection now in street view: 96th Street and Allisonville Road. No more cornfields. But guess what? If there wasn't a road going there, there would have been no development for us to live in. And if the road just stayed the same dinky two lane street it was when we lived there, it probably wouldn't have grown too much.

But people invested money in the path for people to use, and development took off.

4. And those homes built in the cornfields had no roads around them with a driveway connecting the road to the house? Or did those people use SUVs and trucks for what they were designed to handle? That is, just driving through the cornfield to reach their house?

5. Why should I go back and read it? You're right, you didn't personally say my opinion would change, but you certainly leaned, dare I say, fell to the side that a lot of people will be 50 years older and saying, "Boy, I sure am glad we didn't build more rail transportation!"

6. Will I have to wait to build it? Sure. But the fact remains that I will be building it because its what I feel is necessary, and there's no reason why I can't plan for it, and maybe, you know, you being a fairly decent seller(?) you would recognize my wants and at least give me the opportunity to get some measurements, and get some estimates before you move out.

Or you could tell me its an overall waste and refuse to cooperate on any level in the transition. And if that's the attitude that is being presented to me, I will reciprocate it on the official move in day.
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Old 04-28-2012, 09:47 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,259,082 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by HandsUpThumbsDown View Post
You weren't called a dinosaur. Dinosaur was used to describe fossil fuels. "More roads, more roads, more roads" is certainly a 100 year old idea - you don't need to take that personally, it's just a fact. To be ignorant of the costs (all costs - economic, political, environmental, and social costs of the roads only plan) is truly short sighted. I understand both of your frustration on this, but to suggest that anyone who is pro rail is anti road is just silly.
I'm not ignorant of the costs. I'm also very cognizant of the cost of light rail; it's hugely expensive. I know it's hard sometimes to say exactly what one means on the internet, but I'll try again, though I think with the same futile results.

I think that in 50 years, whether I'm still alive or not (unlikely but possible) people are going to look back at this light-rail building frenzy and laugh at the thought. It is incredibly expensive to build. It seems that the impetus for building it is that some people feel that riding on LR is somehow "hipper" or more "gentrified" than riding a bus.

I AM old enough to remember back 50 years ago. (I was a kid then, in my very early teens.) I can remember the urban renewal projects in Pittsburgh, "slum clearance", the building of the Civic Arena (where the Penguins used to play, among other uses) on slum clearnace land, etc. Housing projects were built to replace the substandard housing that was razed. Now, people say "that was the wrong thing to do". That is my point about light rail. It is so expensive to build, I doubt any kind of payback will ever be reached. Something else will replace it, perhaps before some of these systems are even finished. For sure I think TOD will go the way of "lifestyle centers" and the like.

OK, I read the PP's post about dinosaurs and I see he is talking about oil.

Last edited by nei; 04-28-2012 at 11:11 AM.. Reason: if you think it's a personal attack, report it and say the specific part rather than discuss it on the forum
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