Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Eh. They're not really comparable. I could get around, somewhat less conveniently, without having a car. Yes, most people have cars, but an accepted fact of life among normal people? A lack of indoor plumbing is rather unthinkable, and poor hygiene in many cases.
Yes, I suppose most people would rate indoor plumbing as a higher priority than car ownership. But I stand by my analogy. Not having a car is also "rather unthinkable" for me.
By the way, I originally wrote "normal people", but within five minutes edited my post to delete "normal" and replace it with "most people". I realized my drafting was too hasty, as I didn't mean to imply that people without cars are "abnormal" except in a statistical sense. A person without a car can absolutely be honest, hard-working, well-adjusted, brave, clean, and reverent. (With apologies to some dimly remembered Boy Scout motto or law or something for the last three adjectives).
Yes, I suppose most people would rate indoor plumbing as a higher priority than car ownership. But I stand by my analogy. Not having a car is also "rather unthinkable" for me.
Why is it so unthinkable? Is it your area makes it rather hard to get around without a car? Or just drastically different from what I'm used to. I'd find it more unthinkable to be without a computer than a car, though a lot of people their trips would be unmanageable with a car, and older people of course lived fine without a computer.
Actually, I did know someone who lived in a cabin without indoor plumbing but owned a car. Her husband was a logger and they thought it would be neat to live in an isolated spot in Vermont. But she commuted an hour to work most days into Massachusetts. I thought her choice was strange.
Why is it so unthinkable? Is it your area makes it rather hard to get around without a car? Or just drastically different from what I'm used to. I'd find it more unthinkable to be without a computer than a car, though a lot of people their trips would be unmanageable with a car, and older people of course lived fine without a computer.
Actually, I did know someone who lived in a cabin without indoor plumbing but owned a car. Her husband was a logger and they thought it would be neat to live in an isolated spot in Vermont. But she commuted an hour to work most days into Massachusetts. I thought her choice was strange.
Well, I wouldn't want to be without my computer either. I'm glad I don't have to choose between a car and a computer, but if I had to I would choose to keep my car because a local library is close by which is open seven days a week and I could use their computers.
In the Los Angeles area, things do tend to be spread out, and I have friends who live in various parts of the area, as well as volunteer work in the public schools (five different schools spread out over four days a week) which would be time-consuming and difficult to access via public transportation.
I attend various cultural events, including classical music concerts. I can get to Disney Concert Hall downtown via bus without changing lines - I even did it once for a lark - but it takes about twice as long as my car trip, especially on Sundays which is the most frequent day for my attendance at concerts.
I did not own a car during my first year in college. I know there are work-arounds. I am a resourceful person and if some medical disaster forced me to give up driving I would survive. I actually enjoy walking. But without a car my life would be RADICALLY altered for the worse. Gone would be my beloved freedom of movement and the convenience which comes with it. I just picked up 16 folding chairs for our HOA from Costco - not possible on the bus even if one went there.
Your post was so good that it caused me to become a liar. Almost two months ago I said I was not coming back to this forum, but I couldn't pass up the opportunity to second your motion. Behind all the specific arguments, financial or otherwise, lies a striking general attitude, a "consensus of hostility towards cars". In evidence for that (as if any evidence were required), I submit this portion of one of the quotes from the OP:
".....kept alive by journalists...." is outright laughable. Where did the writer come by the false assumption that if only journalists didn't use "hackneyed narratives" and if only we didn't have "a daily bombardment of car ads", then the "car culture" would shrivel and die. Well, the vast majority of people have and use cars because of the superior flexibility, freedom, and convenience which cars afford. Ads have little or nothing to do with it. The ads are vying for sales of particular brands of cars from an audience of people who ALREADY subscribe to the utility and desirability of car ownership.
The phrase "car culture" in itself seems bizarre it me. Well, of course we have a car culture in this country; it is the normal way to live. The vast majority of us also have indoor plumbing, in fact a greater majority than have cars, but there is no talk of an "indoor plumbing culture". Indoor plumbing is an accepted fact of life, just like cars are among most people.
Having said all that, I have no quarrel with people who decide of their own free will not to have cars, or indoor plumbing for that matter. There is nothing wrong with public transit per se. I have used it occasionally myself. Many high-density places are well suited for public transit. But we are talking about underlying attitudes here. The car system is neither "unhealthy" nor "unequal" (whatever that means) nor "unsustainable". From where I sit at age 70 it is just as sustainable as it was over 60 years ago when I was a child forming my initial conceptions of how the world works.
"Indoor plumbing culture?" How many songs have been written about toilets, or kitchen sinks? How often are there vintage plumbing fixture shows, across the US? How many movies or TV shows are there where a plumbing fixture is featured prominently? There are dozens--if not hundreds--of songs about cars. There are thousands of car shows held throughout the US every summer. There are dozens--if not hundreds--of movies and TV shows where cars and trucks are featured prominently, sometimes to the point of being a main character.
With all of that, it's easy to believe the myth that "Americans love their cars." But, the truth is that, for most people, their cars are just appliances. Yes, throughout most of the US, it's easiest to get around by car. But that's because the construction of our transportation infrastructure has been car-centric for the last 60 years, with alternatives being an afterthought.
Again, these discussions aren't about hating the car, or forcing people out of their cars, or whatever. It's about providing viable alternatives to driving for those who would prefer not to drive, or for those like me who don't have the choice to drive. If there appears to be animosity toward the car, it's because it's played such a major role in shaping the form of new development in the US over the last 60+ years, and some of us don't like the results.
"Indoor plumbing culture?" How many songs have been written about toilets, or kitchen sinks? How often are there vintage plumbing fixture shows, across the US? How many movies or TV shows are there where a plumbing fixture is featured prominently? There are dozens--if not hundreds--of songs about cars. There are thousands of car shows held throughout the US every summer. There are dozens--if not hundreds--of movies and TV shows where cars and trucks are featured prominently, sometimes to the point of being a main character.
With all of that, it's easy to believe the myth that "Americans love their cars." But, the truth is that, for most people, their cars are just appliances. Yes, throughout most of the US, it's easiest to get around by car. But that's because the construction of our transportation infrastructure has been car-centric for the last 60 years, with alternatives being an afterthought.
Again, these discussions aren't about hating the car, or forcing people out of their cars, or whatever. It's about providing viable alternatives to driving for those who would prefer not to drive, or for those like me who don't have the choice to drive. If there appears to be animosity toward the car, it's because it's played such a major role in shaping the form of new development in the US over the last 60+ years, and some of us don't like the results.
I agree that for many of us, cars are just an appliance, albeit an expensive one. But, with nei's forebearance, I'm going to bring in a post from another thread (not dredging up an old post, nei, this one is from 12/6 )
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdAilment
All are correct except for number for. It wasn't a decrease of public transit options, but rather an increase of private transit options. Americans had greater access to cars, they could drive where they want when they want, not having to walk, or stick to train and bus schedules. When Americas discovered they could drive more, in turn with all the civil rights movements of the 50's and 60's, they began retreating to the suburbs, and the businesses followed them, seeing downtowns begin to die and dry up, as they were no longer THE place to be, everyone wanted to live in the suburbs, while the downtown was left to corporate offices and the poor minorities.
In the 21st century we've seen quite the opposite happen. Many young people are moving back to the downtown area, and the millenials are overall driving less and own fewer cars than their parents' generation. If anything, I think downtowns in America have really begun to revitalize and reinvent themselves. What's especially fascinating and enjoyable to see is the smaller cities, the ones you've likely never heard of, that are doing all they can to deliver a cosmopolitan feel to their core downtown, trying to attract people to move into the downtown area.
Whether the urban "true believers" like it or not, cars are convenient! We've discussed this before; they gave women, especially, the freedom to travel at night in relative safety. People literally voted with their feet, to use cars rather than PT. Cars gave people with little access to PT, or with inadequate PT, mobility.
"Indoor plumbing culture?" How many songs have been written about toilets, or kitchen sinks? How often are there vintage plumbing fixture shows, across the US? How many movies or TV shows are there where a plumbing fixture is featured prominently? There are dozens--if not hundreds--of songs about cars. There are thousands of car shows held throughout the US every summer. There are dozens--if not hundreds--of movies and TV shows where cars and trucks are featured prominently, sometimes to the point of being a main character.
Yea, when I think of "car culture" I think of something like the teens in American Graffiti, loving cars for their own sake. There's I'm choosing to drive because it's more convenient, and then there's the attitude of I like driving because I like being in a car vs other modes. That could be described as car culture. I remember freshman year of college a dorm mate mentioned he missed being in a car, not really for any lack of convenience but just because he missed cars. Or the dormmate who tried driving to a campus get together and the time driving + finding parking + walking was greater than just walking. He wouldn't have tried driving if he had known the result, but it seemed he really wanted to drive as his "default mode".
Yea, when I think of "car culture" I think of something like the teens in American Graffiti, loving cars for their own sake. There's I'm choosing to drive because it's more convenient, and then there's the attitude of I like driving because I like being in a car vs other modes. That could be described as car culture. I remember freshman year of college a dorm mate mentioned he missed being in a car, not really for any lack of convenience but just because he missed cars. Or the dormmate who tried driving to a campus get together and the time driving + finding parking + walking was greater than just walking. He wouldn't have tried driving if he had known the result, but it seemed he really wanted to drive as his "default mode".
People like the "American Graffiti" teens are a subset of drivers for sure. Re-reading the OP, I'm not sure what his point is.
Whether the urban "true believers" like it or not, cars are convenient! We've discussed this before; they gave women, especially, the freedom to travel at night in relative safety. People literally voted with their feet, to use cars rather than PT. Cars gave people with little access to PT, or with inadequate PT, mobility.
What bugs me about these discussions isn't that people like cars or prefer cars--I consider myself a car guy--but that it becomes so polarized, with one side treating cars as both free (as in free lunch, for which there is no such thing) and naturally superior to everything else, and the other side raising talking points that demonize the private car and treat it as if there is no practical or pragmatic reason to own and use one.
The reality is that cars are expensive, and their total dominance vs. other modes is in large part due to the hundreds of billions, if not trillions, of dollars in subsidy they have received and the preference they have been given in laws and zoning, from the criminalization of jaywalking to massively wide streets to parking minimums which aren't based on any concrete evidence of need or value added. But that doesn't say cars are bad, only that they are imperfect tools that we have wielded imperfectly. Nuance--what is the best choice for a given place at a given time in history--is drowned out by dismissive, binary talk of "urban true believers" and its opposition.
I suspect there might be some shift in the demographics of those not driving — not driving less concentrated among poor young people. For the metros with the biggest changes, I think it's tracking changes in residence more than anything else (young people moving to less car dependent neighborhoods).
That article largely disputes the hypothesis that Millennials prefer to not drive with evidence that they do drive, but glosses over that preference and necessity are two different things. It's not as if a person could easily just up and move from Oklahoma to NYC or Tokyo or Copenhagen; the housing market simply isn't that efficient at pairing preference and supply.
I mean, saying vehicle use = preference would be to say that, because so many teens take the SATs and the ACT, teens must prefer taking tests to not taking tests.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
A lack of indoor plumbing is rather unthinkable, and poor hygiene in many cases.
