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Oh, and areas like Boulevard matter because the original question was, what cities have CONTINUOUS/UNINTERRUPTED development. Meaning, you can't count Downtown/Midtown/Buckhead and Perimeter business districts of Atlanta. They simply are NOT uninterrupted. The most you can get away with is Downtown to Midtown as being attached/uninterrupted via the Peachtree corridor.
Interesting on this lot classification. Would you happen to have a definition. For example is it some form of percentage covered, are there height or sq footage characteristics. Am kind of curious as to what you would classify an area like South Phildephia for example with high developed density yet mostly single family rowhomes the further you get from say Christian Street.
But interesting perspective.
Also on this classification and your ranking it seems that DC or a SF could be ahead of a Boston or Philly in some ways depending on the way it is viewed.
But again thanks, found your posts to be very interesting and personally insightful.
Location: The Greatest city on Earth: City of Atlanta Proper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psykomonkee
No. You misunderstood. "suburban developments" is not a synonym for suburbs. Vine City is NOT the Suburbs. However, Vine City, the Boulevard corridor and the former Olympic Village are NOT 0 lot development. Those areas (though deep in the city) have developments that are 3 and 4 lot zonings, which is by nature of building zonings, "SUBURBAN development."
Again, neither Vine City or Boulevard are in Downtown or Midtown. Also, developments I think you are talking about are in different neighborhoods than you are citing (minor point) and aren't indicative of the type of development in the areas in total. There was a period in the late 80s to mid 90s where these massive complexes that were built that do meet what you are saying however out of context (and over exaggerated like you are doing) one will get the wrong impression. Almost all of them replaced old public housing developments that go so bad that bulldozing was the only option. Those that were redeveloped in the mid 90s and before were developed in that gated apartment complex sort of way, but they were better than what was there before and they exist in an area in which one can still have all of the benefits of urban living (mass transit, close proximity to jobs and retail) that its more of a debate of aesthetics than function.
The development near Olympic Park sort inhabits a weird between good urbanism and the misguided ideas of redevelopment in the 80s and 90s. First though, what you keep calling the "Olympic Village" is separate from the actual Olympic Village which are four very large buildings on a single block that can hold 10,000 residents. The buildings are now dormitories for Georgia Tech so that's nothing but a big when. Centennial Place directly across the street from the Olympic Village on the other hand fits what you are talking about more, but it is more "good" than it is "bad". From a design perspective it is wreaks of that late 90s suburban-esque apartment complex style. However it is not gated and is positioned in a way that is of easy walking distance of CBD, four subway stations, a huge urban park (Olympic Park), Georgia Tech and Georgia State universities and everything else Downtown and the lower part of Midtown have to offer. When actually seen, it doesn't exactly come up as the negative you are making it out to be:
The neighborhood you are speaking of is the center of the picture. Could it have been designed with a better aesthetic? Yes, but it's function as a neighborhood is a bonus to Downtown.
The bigger point overall is that period has been done for a very long time. Since the mid 90s, infill and redevelopment of blighted properties in Downtown/Midtown has all been of the highrise, high density midrise, or rowhouse variety. I'd place a bunch of examples of that, but my interest is waning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psykomonkee
Anyone who thinks that is "crap" just doesn't understand zoning. There is a such thing as urban zonings and suburban zonings. Atlanta (as much as I love it) chose to issue suburban building code zonings to developments in the center of its urban core.
The problem I have is labeling it "suburban". Atlanta's zoning laws are wacky and a lot of other things, but they are far too complex to label as just one thing. They also vary greatly by area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psykomonkee
Doesn't mean it's the suburbs. It is still he center of the city. But it IS a place where suburban development has "infiltrated" into the city.
Geez, you are making it sound like some sort of virus.
No. You misunderstood. "suburban developments" is not a synonym for suburbs. Vine City is NOT the Suburbs. However, Vine City, the Boulevard corridor and the former Olympic Village are NOT 0 lot development. Those areas (though deep in the city) have developments that are 3 and 4 lot zonings, which is by nature of building zonings, "SUBURBAN development."
Anyone who thinks that is "crap" just doesn't understand zoning. There is a such thing as urban zonings and suburban zonings. Atlanta (as much as I love it) chose to issue suburban building code zonings to developments in the center of its urban core.
Doesn't mean it's the suburbs. It is still he center of the city. But it IS a place where suburban development has "infiltrated" into the city.
Yes, Vine City & the Boulevard corridors are old neighborhoods. But that is NOT to say that an old neighborhood won't have new developments. There ARE developments in those areas (if you just take a drive around and look) that were developed during our Pre and Post Olympic eras. And those developments were not urban core developments. There are relatively new neighborhoods along Boulevard that are gated apartment complexes with garages. That is NOT urban core development. Sorry, but it just isn't. It's something to love about ATL though. It's what makes our city unique despite all the outside a-holes that want to judge it because it isn't as urban as NY, DC and Chicago. So what. Embrace it. Don't be defensive about it. It is what it is... And they still move to ATL because they like it better there than their urban cities elsewhere.
Don't be so emotional. I love Atlanta to. But to be real, it can't make the list for largest uninterrupted downtown/urban development.
Also, DC wouldn't make "Tier 1" ONLY because of DC law that states that no building in the city of DC can be built over 30stories, or to obstruct the view of the US National Capitol Building's dome. That is the ONLY reason DC is not a skyscraper haven. Otherwise, with the amount of businesses, bureaus and international interest in DC that is only 2nd to NYC, DC would have a crazy skyline, I'm sure.
I think I'll post a thread about it, because I'm hearing a lot of DC, SF hatred here. I don't know why though. I love ATL, but I am realistic and I realize that DC has more businesses headquartered in DC than ATL. (I researched it before. Guess I will again for the thread's sake).
All the DC suburbs are building 0 lot development now. There is a huge difference in 0 lot development. It is very urban.
zoning space doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the height of the building. It is based on the proximity of the actual building structure to the street and neighboring structures. Hence, "0" lot means virtually NO space. When u see buildings with the front door only a few steps from the curb, that's 0 lot. But there is one more aspect that goes into zoning space, and I think it's the part that waronxmas is not getting out of my post. What I mean by "suburban" style developments is that there IS actually a classification that list developments as high density (ie: urban) residential, low density (ie: suburban) residential, commercial, industrial, etc... My point has NOTHING to do with proximity to urban life and things that can be taken advantage of with city living (like waronxmas keeps stating). My point is simply that there ARE some developments in the inner city area (again, I will say the INNER CITY AREA, NOT downtown.) that were issued for low density residential developments. Yes, it is so.
Again, going back to the original question (because this is NOT a matter of debating whether ATL is a real CITY city or not. It is a matter of asking what cities have the top 10 largest areas of UNINTERRUPTED/CONTINUOUS urban/downtown development). Because ATL has MIXED density developments deep into the city's core, I (ME. Psykomonkee) do not see it making the top 10 list. I can't give it to Atlanta, no matter how much I love my city. Just is NOT as widely uninterrupted as many other cities I've visited.
I've done some pretty good traveling. I have not listed any city I have not spent good time in to form my own opinion about. I've lived in LA, the SF area, DC, ATL and NYC (and several other places not listed). I'm from ATL and it's still my favorite city. But I'm realistic about it. That's the only way to make it better.
Also, spare me. I know the difference in Vine City and downtown. I grew up on MLK in Vine City (near Morris Brown). Also, I know the Olympic Village/GA State dorms very well. That's where my brother lived for 4 years. The area I'm speaking about is between the GA State dorms/Coke Campus and GA Aquarium (all the vaulted roof housings near the bottom of your picture). That neighborhood was built as a result of the Olympics. That's what I'm speaking of (excuse me for using the term "Olympic Village"). That area is in the heart of the city and is most definitely, not by any means a high density/urban residential zoned development.
Waronxmas... The "negative" implications that you got from my post are on you. Others understood, but you took offense to me stating facts about the city I love. I meant nothing negative. However I DO disagree with a lot of zoning decisions that are made by city planners in Atlanta and feel we could do better, there is still nothing negative about what I'm saying. Again, I'll say "it's what makes our city unique!" So love it or leave it, but either way, be real about it. The longer we waste time trying to argue the point and try to make Atlanta into things that it simply just is not yet, the longer we hold ourselves back from creating new and better ideas that will inhance Atlanta's future. I want to see Atlanta become a top world destination. A place included in A List cities lists.
If the original question is “10 Largest Downtown's by Continuous Build Environment,” I MUST determine what “Continuous Build Environment” is to say. What I think he means by that is, areas that feel like downtown/urban zoning, not in regards to the actual neighborhood itself, but areas where the urban development extends beyond the neighborhood, beyond downtown and continue for the widest areas. In Atlanta, the urban core is broken by mixed (zonings) developments between the high density areas of downtown, midtown, buckhead and perimeter. So all those don’t count unless their high density developments touch physically. Not simply by means of neighborhood affiliation or reach of cab, bus, train or walking. If they touch physically and continuously.
zoning space doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the height of the building. It is based on the proximity of the actual building structure to the street and neighboring structures. Hence, "0" lot means virtually NO space. When u see buildings with the front door only a few steps from the curb, that's 0 lot. But there is one more aspect that goes into zoning space, and I think it's the part that waronxmas is not getting out of my post. What I mean by "suburban" style developments is that there IS actually a classification that list developments as high density (ie: urban) residential, low density (ie: suburban) residential, commercial, industrial, etc... My point has NOTHING to do with proximity to urban life and things that can be taken advantage of with city living (like waronxmas keeps stating). My point is simply that there ARE some developments in the inner city area (again, I will say the INNER CITY AREA, NOT downtown.) that were issued for low density residential developments. Yes, it is so.
Again, going back to the original question (because this is NOT a matter of debating whether ATL is a real CITY city or not. It is a matter of asking what cities have the top 10 largest areas of UNINTERRUPTED/CONTINUOUS urban/downtown development). Because ATL has MIXED density developments deep into the city's core, I (ME. Psykomonkee) do not see it making the top 10 list. I can't give it to Atlanta, no matter how much I love my city. Just is NOT as widely uninterrupted as many other cities I've visited.
I've done some pretty good traveling. I have not listed any city I have not spent good time in to form my own opinion about. I've lived in LA, the SF area, DC, ATL and NYC (and several other places not listed). I'm from ATL and it's still my favorite city. But I'm realistic about it. That's the only way to make it better.
Also, spare me. I know the difference in Vine City and downtown. I grew up on MLK in Vine City (near Morris Brown). Also, I know the Olympic Village/GA State dorms very well. That's where my brother lived for 4 years. The area I'm speaking about is between the GA State dorms/Coke Campus and GA Aquarium (all the vaulted roof housings near the bottom of your picture). That neighborhood was built as a result of the Olympics. That's what I'm speaking of (excuse me for using the term "Olympic Village"). That area is in the heart of the city and is most definitely, not by any means a high density/urban residential zoned development.
Waronxmas... The "negative" implications that you got from my post are on you. Others understood, but you took offense to me stating facts about the city I love. I meant nothing negative. However I DO disagree with a lot of zoning decisions that are made by city planners in Atlanta and feel we could do better, there is still nothing negative about what I'm saying. Again, I'll say "it's what makes our city unique!" So love it or leave it, but either way, be real about it. The longer we waste time trying to argue the point and try to make Atlanta into things that it simply just is not yet, the longer we hold ourselves back from creating new and better ideas that will inhance Atlanta's future. I want to see Atlanta become a top world destination. A place included in A List cities lists.
If the original question is “10 Largest Downtown's by Continuous Build Environment,” I MUST determine what “Continuous Build Environment” is to say. What I think he means by that is, areas that feel like downtown/urban zoning, not in regards to the actual neighborhood itself, but areas where the urban development extends beyond the neighborhood, beyond downtown and continue for the widest areas. In Atlanta, the urban core is broken by mixed (zonings) developments between the high density areas of downtown, midtown, buckhead and perimeter. So all those don’t count unless their high density developments touch physically. Not simply by means of neighborhood affiliation or reach of cab, bus, train or walking. If they touch physically and continuously.
You hit it right on the head. That is exactly what I meant by reach of urban CBD development. The type of development is what people have been confused about. Im speaking about 0 lot street fronting mixed use commercial construction.
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