How to define what's a suburb (or suburban) (park, environment, Portland)

[nei]

Originally Posted by Katiana

I responded with the stereotypes quotes (from this thread, mind you), b/c I was told I was bringing up old arguments.

No, I never said you were bringing up old arguments. Notice I used "we" in lost the OP not "you". I said whether the argument on using city limits to define suburbs was an old argument. I never said the stereotypes were old arguments; I wasn't responding to that in what I quoted in this post:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/21746866-post84.html

I didn't think my post was that unclear and I'm rather frustrated.

I still feel a suburb cannot be part of a city. I think we need some definition of suburb so people can talk about them intelligently.

I gave my reasons earlier, you can look at them if you're interested. But I'll repeat with one of them examples I gave: what if the city limits (like several Canadian cities) encompasses almost the entire metro area?

Either way, I'm not making things up to make an arbitary definition ; I backed up my reasons.

[Katiana]

Originally Posted by nei

No, I never said you were bringing up old arguments. Notice I used "we" in lost the OP not "you". I said whether the argument on using city limits to define suburbs was an old argument. I never said the stereotypes were old arguments; I wasn't responding to that in what I quoted in this post:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/21746866-post84.html

I didn't think my post was that unclear and I'm rather frustrated.



I gave my reasons earlier, you can look at them if you're interested. But I'll repeat with one of them examples I gave: what if the city limits (like several Canadian cities) encompasses almost the entire metro area?

You quoted me. That implies you are responding to me. Actually, rereading your post with my quote in it, you are responding almost entirely to me. Note use of "you", singular, several times.

If the city limits encompass almost the entire metro area, I guess most of the metro area is "urban". "Suburban" is really just a sub-form of "urban" anyway. Suburb is more related to city than to rural.

I think it's hard to compare country to country.

[nei]

Originally Posted by Katiana

If the city limits encompass almost the entire metro area, I guess most of the metro area is "urban". "Suburban" is really just a sub-form of "urban" anyway. Suburb is more related to city than to rural.

This is the example I had in mind (in the map):

Halifax Regional Municipality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The municipality of Halifax is marked has having, urban, suburban and rural areas but they are all under one legal entity. So, no not considered all urban.

[jade408]

Originally Posted by Katiana

More stereotypes. And you're jumpin on MY case b/c I want a working defintion of suburb?

I use one working definition for a suburb:
any place where most structures are single use, and structures with similar purposes are grouped together and ones with different purposes are far away from the other ones.

I.e. a typical suburb will have one zone of houses, another zone that is commercial, etc. These areas are typically separated by distance or a physical barrier and there is limited connectivity between these zones. Generally, most suburbs assume the only way to get between the zones is to drive, and there are a myriad if tactics to keep the zones separate: culdesacs, winding streets with no connection to the main road....

A city generally has buildings with different purposes in close proximity that are interconnected. You also generally find less space between buildings in a city than a suburb, since this helps keep things more connected.

A suburb can have "city" neighborhoods and a city can have "suburban" neighborhoods. Either place can change over time and morph into the other one.

[Katiana]

^^Again, stereotypes. There is zoning in the city, too. You don't have an oil refinery sited in a neighborhood of million dollar homes sited next to a baseball stadium, etc. If you go a few blocks away from an urban shopping area, it's all residential (at least in Denver).

How about this for a definition:

City: land inside the city limits.
Suburb: smaller community in close proximity to a larger city.

[nei]

Originally Posted by Katiana

How about this for a definition:

City: land inside the city limits.
Suburb: smaller community in close proximity to a larger city.

No. Again, tells you little about the place inside other than the government system. I think using city limits is problematic, and I don't see why it's a good definition.

Copying and pasting from my old post where I gave reasons:

I don't really like using city limits to define "urban" vs "suburban" since city limits can be arbitrary, often dependent on which communities got annexed and which didn't. LA is an extreme example of this; the city boundaries don't really follow anything logical. This article describes it well:

Human Transit: the "cities vs suburbs" trope

city limits have no authority to tell us what a city is, and why we should want to live in a real city or not

Closer to home for me, one can take a 10 minute walk from Downtown Boston and be out of the Boston city limits, yet the landscape very urban; only looks slightly less urban than downtown Boston. Or one could go 8 miles to the southwest and find yourself in a neighborhood of single family homes and yards and still be in the city limits.

How would you deal with these problems with your definition?


Also, quoting from this article:

The biggest drawback is probably the fact that the central municipality’s administrative boundaries can provide an inaccurate picture of the forms of urban development in a CMA. In some CMAs, people who live a dozen kilometres from the city centre, in neighbourhoods that have all the qualities of traditional suburban neighbourhoods, are nevertheless residing in the central municipality. Conversely, in other CMAs, people living only a few kilometres from the central business district, in very densely populated neighbourhoods, are regarded as living in a suburban municipality. The reason for these differences is that municipal history, and therefore municipal administrative boundaries, vary substantially from CMA to CMA.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-008-.../10459-eng.htm

[jade408]

Originally Posted by Katiana

^^Again, stereotypes. There is zoning in the city, too. You don't have an oil refinery sited in a neighborhood of million dollar homes sited next to a baseball stadium, etc. If you go a few blocks away from an urban shopping area, it's all residential (at least in Denver).

How about this for a definition:

City: land inside the city limits.
Suburb: smaller community in close proximity to a larger city.

Yes oil refineries are special exceptions. But in suburban feeling areas you have homes over here and offices >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> here and shops >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here. With very little intermixing.

Your defiition doesn't work. Is Central Park a "city?" Is Long Island the "city?"

[memph]

Here's how I define things:

The city is everything within city limits. A suburb is anywhere outside the city proper that's not rural and in the city's MSA.

Suburban and urban though are relatively subjective. Suburban would be any area that has the characteristics that a person generally associates with suburbs, like being difficult to live without a car, large swaths of single use, detached single family homes, etc. What suburban means can vary from person to person, and that's ok, although there are some characteristics that most people would agree on. Places that are urban are places that have characteristics associated with the city or downtown core like walkability or more mixed use (or at least smaller swaths of single use).

So according to my definition, there are places that are urban that are in what I consider to be a suburb, and places that are suburban (sometimes even rural) in what I consider to be the city. It makes it easier to understand what someone is talking about when they say they like places that are urban, since it's understood that they're not talking about places like this, which is in Ottawa's city limits:
Ottawa - Google Maps

Ottawa's land area includes massive amounts of rural land.

My personal definition of urban vs suburban is based mostly on walkability, so I would consider this neighbourhood suburban, even though others might not, so there are some less clear cut cases:
Toronto, ON - Google Maps

But there are some cases that most people will agree are suburban, like this:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=Toronto,+ON&hl=en&ll=43.836299,-79.229893&spn=0.017304,0.038581&sll=45.406164,-76.000671&sspn=1.077908,2.469177&vpsrc=6&gl=ca&hne ar=Toronto,+Toronto+Division,+Ontario&t=h&z=15&lay er=c&cbll=43.836299,-79.229893&panoid=amJr69dcPHEjXt0bW9TXrg&cbp=12,18. 52,,0,-3.6

And which most people will agree are urban:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=Toronto,+ON&hl=en&ll=43.66885,-79.385226&spn=0.017353,0.038581&sll=45.406164,-76.000671&sspn=1.077908,2.469177&vpsrc=6&gl=ca&hne ar=Toronto,+Toronto+Division,+Ontario&t=h&z=15&lay er=c&cbll=43.66885,-79.385226&panoid=Man3dBjAUDfkhEk4Q7Ze3w&cbp=12,255 .38,,0,-5.31

[Katiana]

Originally Posted by jade408

Yes oil refineries are special exceptions. But in suburban feeling areas you have homes over here and offices >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> here and shops >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here. With very little intermixing.

Your defiition doesn't work. Is Central Park a "city?" Is Long Island the "city?"

Somehow I don't think you've been in a suburb for decades, if at all, if you think that. OTOH, even in the city there is separation of office areas (downtown) and residential areas. Oh, there are a few trendy condo complexes in downtown Denver, but even then, not RIGHT downtown; they're over by the ball park, or on the west side of downtown.

Central Park is IN the city. Should a city not include parks now?

I don't know enough about Long Island to discuss it. I know that's odd, for CD, to a) admit you don't know something, and b) not discuss what you don't know.

[Katiana]

Originally Posted by memph

Here's how I define things:

The city is everything within city limits. A suburb is anywhere outside the city proper that's not rural and in the city's MSA.

Suburban and urban though are relatively subjective. Suburban would be any area that has the characteristics that a person generally associates with suburbs, like being difficult to live without a car, large swaths of single use, detached single family homes, etc. What suburban means can vary from person to person, and that's ok, although there are some characteristics that most people would agree on. Places that are urban are places that have characteristics associated with the city or downtown core like walkability or more mixed use (or at least smaller swaths of single use).

So according to my definition, there are places that are urban that are in what I consider to be a suburb, and places that are suburban (sometimes even rural) in what I consider to be the city. It makes it easier to understand what someone is talking about when they say they like places that are urban, since it's understood that they're not talking about places like this, which is in Ottawa's city limits:
Ottawa - Google Maps

Ottawa's land area includes massive amounts of rural land.

<snip>

I agree. The above definition (in bold) has several advantages over other defintions proffered on this forum.

1. Simplicity. No great decisions need to be made. If it's in the city limits, it's the city. If it's not, it's suburb.

2. OBJECTIVE. No evaluation of one's neighborhood, one's house, one's lifestyle needs to be made for this defintion.

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If you live in the city, you pay your local taxes to the city. You must abide by local ordinances. An example: When driving north on Denver's Federal Blvd, as soon as you cross into Adams County at 52nd Ave, there is a proliferation of fireworks stands. It's illegal to sell them in Denver; not so in Admas Co. If you live in the city, you sometimes get "city rates" for city services, such as the recreation centers. Your local government rep is the mayor and your city councilperson (or equivalent). Just a few examples.