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I don't care what any of you urbanites have to say. I love the suburbs. I feel at peace here. Stop hating and just mind your business. If you don't like the suburbs, don't talk about it or move there. It's as simple as that.
They will never will quit until they make you realize that your way of living is not as great as living in the city. They can't seem to accept that not everybody wants to be a "10 minute walk from everything", and that you can live in the suburbs and still drive into the city and enjoy everything there is about the city.
Thanks for your kind words. RE: the bold, I completely disagree. I lived in the city, two large ones, Pittsburgh and Denver, and one small one, Champaign-Urbana IL. I didn't even know most of my neighbors there; I wouldn't have recognized most of them if I had tripped over them on the street. Could you give an example of such a thing happening in "the city", any city?
OTOH, the same type of neighborliness existed in my parents' suburban neighborhood near Pittsburgh.
What's that, some fiction film, or a film about dysfunctional kids? Not confined to the burbs, pal.
I have repeatedly given examples from my own neighborhood--I know the name of every homeowner on our block, and a couple of the renters. Our group that gets together for potlucks also helps each other out in between, including ad-hoc assistance for some who are seniors who have difficulties with mobility. Generally I can't walk more than two blocks in this neighborhood without running into a friend or acquaintance. And yes, we also have several neighborhood email lists, which we use to communicate about everything from emergencies to garage sales.
And "Suburbia" is the film I just posted a YouTube link to above--the second link is to a scene from "The Decline of Western Civilization," a documentary by Penelope Spheeris, who also made "Suburbia." "Decline" is about the Los Angeles punk scene, a scene dominated by kids from the massive suburbs of Los Angeles, and "Suburbia" is a film set in that setting, using primarily kids from the L.A. scene rather than professional actors. Alienated by the suburbs, they turned to each other for support. Sure, it's fiction, but having been in situations not too dissimilar to those kids, including finding community in a houseful of punks, I recognize the filmmaker's efforts at realism, even in a Roger Corman film.
Katiana, you repeatedly ask me to provide links to support what I'm saying, then when I provide links, you don't follow them. Are you really asking for more information, or just trying to goad me into a fight?
I have repeatedly given examples from my own neighborhood--I know the name of every homeowner on our block, and a couple of the renters. Our group that gets together for potlucks also helps each other out in between, including ad-hoc assistance for some who are seniors who have difficulties with mobility. Generally I can't walk more than two blocks in this neighborhood without running into a friend or acquaintance. And yes, we also have several neighborhood email lists, which we use to communicate about everything from emergencies to garage sales.
And "Suburbia" is the film I just posted a YouTube link to above--the second link is to a scene from "The Decline of Western Civilization," a documentary by Penelope Spheeris, who also made "Suburbia." "Decline" is about the Los Angeles punk scene, a scene dominated by kids from the massive suburbs of Los Angeles, and "Suburbia" is a film set in that setting, using primarily kids from the L.A. scene rather than professional actors. Alienated by the suburbs, they turned to each other for support. Sure, it's fiction, but having been in situations not too dissimilar to those kids, including finding community in a houseful of punks, I recognize the filmmaker's efforts at realism, even in a Roger Corman film.
Katiana, you repeatedly ask me to provide links to support what I'm saying, then when I provide links, you don't follow them. Are you really asking for more information, or just trying to goad me into a fight?
No I am not trying to goad you, but you put out a lot of unsubstantiated stuff on this forum. I rarely watch a youtube video; I do not consider them credible, and I don't want to waste a minute and a half of my life watching some movie about alienated kids, whether they live in the city or the burbs.
I have never read a post where any of your neighbors got together to help out someone who was having surgery. Why don't you repost one? I never heard about any neighborhood email of yours until today.
So I have to cite an example specifically where a neighbor was having surgery, and other examples of neighborly behavior, social interaction, community gatherings, and interconnectedness don't count? Okay then, I suppose I don't meet up to your very specific standards. But I still think my neighborhood is pretty swell.
Why don't you consider video sources to be credible? Is a link to a documentary film any less credible than some text posted on a web page? It just seems like you consider things unsubstantiated simply because you disagree with them, or that because you had never personally seen X, that X must not exist--or that because you saw something in a city 40 years ago means that all cities are like that now.
I wasn't trying to start yet another urban vs suburban argument, I was just trying to point out that the suburbia we got was not as it was advertised or necessarily intended.
So it it possible in this day and age to accomplish what the original vision for suburban life promised?
What turned a tight knit, safe and close-to-the-land development idea that seemed to promise the best of both urban and rural life into "rows and rows of ticky-tacky boxes" surrounded by contrived "cartoon nature" and lit by the bluish glow of TV screens behind picture windows?
They will never will quit until they make you realize that your way of living is not as great as living in the city. They can't seem to accept that not everybody wants to be a "10 minute walk from everything", and that you can live in the suburbs and still drive into the city and enjoy everything there is about the city.
I think you expressed my sentiments exactly with not wanting to be a 10 minute walk from everything. When I used to commute 50 miles 1 way to work in the Chicago area everyday, I actually liked the long commute. It gave me time to think about the upcoming day and plan work, listen to the news and music. The idea of walking to work would really put me out of sorts for the day. Neither do I want to be too close to everything else.
Where I live now out in western North Dakota, I'm 6-8 miles from town. I consider that plenty close and I do live in a truly rural area. It is not an inconvenience at all to hop in the car and drive to town. But, this life is not for everyone. 100% auto-centric with a walk score of 0, lots of privacy, no nosey neighbors and hundreds of feet in all directions of open land that I own. And I love it.
I think you expressed my sentiments exactly with not wanting to be a 10 minute walk from everything. When I used to commute 50 miles 1 way to work in the Chicago area everyday, I actually liked the long commute. It gave me time to think about the upcoming day and plan work, listen to the news and music. The idea of walking to work would really put me out of sorts for the day. Neither do I want to be too close to everything else.
Where I live now out in western North Dakota, I'm 6-8 miles from town. I consider that plenty close and I do live in a truly rural area. It is not an inconvenience at all to hop in the car and drive to town. But, this life is not for everyone. 100% auto-centric with a walk score of 0, lots of privacy, no nosey neighbors and hundreds of feet in all directions of open land that I own. And I love it.
There seems to be this feeling from urbanites that walking everywhere is the only true way to live. They can tell me how much better living in the city is because they are close to everything, and I can say, i'm only a 10 minute drive from the city. It seems they think driving a car should be huge inconvience for everybody, but there are actually people who don't mind driving.
So I have to cite an example specifically where a neighbor was having surgery, and other examples of neighborly behavior, social interaction, community gatherings, and interconnectedness don't count? Okay then, I suppose I don't meet up to your very specific standards. But I still think my neighborhood is pretty swell.
Why don't you consider video sources to be credible? Is a link to a documentary film any less credible than some text posted on a web page? It just seems like you consider things unsubstantiated simply because you disagree with them, or that because you had never personally seen X, that X must not exist--or that because you saw something in a city 40 years ago means that all cities are like that now.
Well, something like that. My example happened last week. I was very touched that so many cared about my family and me. One woman even wrote that while she doesn't know me, she sees my friend and I walking (we go three days a week), she had a baby last year and so appreciated people bringing meals that she wants to "pay it forward". I told my brother I felt I was "Touched by an Angel" (old TV show for you younguns).
When I used to commute 50 miles 1 way to work in the Chicago area everyday, I actually liked the long commute.
Good for you.
But this tendency to dichotomize questions in this forum...
that everything must either be a A (a 50 mile drive) or Z (a 10 minute walk)...
gets chuckled at by those who find their happy spot somewhere in the middle.
Well, something like that. My example happened last week. I was very touched that so many cared about my family and me. One woman even wrote that while she doesn't know me, she sees my friend and I walking (we go three days a week), she had a baby last year and so appreciated people bringing meals that she wants to "pay it forward". I told my brother I felt I was "Touched by an Angel" (old TV show for you younguns).
I'm glad you think your neighborhood is "swell". Perhpaps its residents, too, would reach out to someone in need.
Anyone can make a youtube video. Most of what I consider unsubtantiated is facts that are not backed up with any kind of source, link, whatever.
The link I provided was for a documentary movie from 1980, and a drama made by the same filmmaker in 1984--many years before "Touched by an Angel" hit the small screen. Not just someone sitting in front of a webcam talking about things.
Quote:
This kind of statement needs some verification to be credible. I don't consider everything any poster says "the inspired word of God".
The problem is, most of the sources I use aren't just things posted on websites. I'm kind of an old-fashioned guy, I still read a lot of books, and not all of them are available online. I do mention some of the books and articles that back up my statements, and you don't seem to take those sources seriously either--you criticized one book considered one of the fundamental texts on the subject because the writer was a journalist!
Meanwhile, let's take a look at the bit you're choosing to criticize. Building houses out of wood is cheaper than building them out of brick or stone or steel. Are you claiming that nobody would seriously believe a wooden house costs less to build than one built of more durable materials? The government does subsidize transportation networks. Are you claiming that the United States highway system is not a government program, that infrastructure like roads are not something paid for by taxes?
My statement you quoted is simply factual, and I don't see any need to back up anything so obvious.
See, here's what happens when I provide sources:
Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg
As I have mentioned elsewhere, I do my research using books and primary sources, not Internet sites. There are some academic journal articles I could cite, but unless you have access to JSTOR or other online journal archive that wouldn't do you much good. But here are a few books on suburbanization I recommend:
(Note: The first two books were written by two highly respected historians, and were written primarily for other historians. Crabgrass Frontier is one of the best-known and most-referenced works on urban history and suburbanization of the past few decades. The other two are written by urban planning professionals and also considered seminal works.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana
None of those links you provided are to scholarly books; if I tried to back up some of my health care knowledge with books written by journalists, I'd be laughed off. Here is a line from one of them that almost made me spit my tea at the screen:
These practices, they contend, have not only destroyed the traditional concept of the neighborhood, but eroded such vital social values as equality, citizenship and personal safety. Further, they charge that current suburban developments are not only economically and environmentally "unsustainable," but "not functional" because they isolate and place undue burdens on at-home mothers, children, teens and the elderly.
Jeez, you read stuff like that, no wonder you think the burbs are going to hell in a handbasket! Regarding citizenship, to give just one example, it's actually easier in the suburbs, with their smaller populations, to participate in government and even run for office.
So even if I quote a source, you're just going to belittle it. Why should I bother?
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