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Old 09-02-2012, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
3,158 posts, read 6,106,859 times
Reputation: 5619

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People seem very passionate about either living in the city or the suburbs, each claiming a better standard of living. I read through many of the posts on this forum before I thought I would weigh in. Here are some things that I didn't see addressed, but I didn't read all 85+ pages.

Many posts argued about money. People need to remember that the growth of the suburbs was made possible by huge subsidies from the Federal government in the form of highway building and home loans. Socially, the growth was also part of racism of white flight. I am not saying that those who live in the suburbs now are racist, their growth in the 1950s - 1970s was an unanticipated consequence of school integration.

The defining characteristic of the suburbs is sprawl. Some suburbs were small towns that existed outside of the city. Over the years, the sprawl created when more people move to the suburb merged the suburb with the city. After the gaps between the city and these small towns disappeared, the suburbs sprawled in the opposite direction.

It is the sprawl that has and will continue to create problems. Suburbs are auto-centric. As the price of gasoline rises, this will diminish the quality of suburban life. Commuting into the cities will become prohibitively expensive, and the growth of auto-centric suburbs will lead to large traffic problems. The mentality of the suburbs that a person can and should have their own space and freedom to go when and where they want, manifests itself into a lot of cars with only one passenger on the highways. Forward-looking metro areas are building light rail/commuter rail systems that do not seem to make financial sense now, but will in the future.

The financial problems of the cities will begin to plague the suburbs. The infrastructure of the suburbs will start to fall apart as they age. The oldest suburbs are already seeing these problems as public buildings and sewer and water lines are aging and will need to be replaced. Tax rates will have to rise as this happens.
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Old 09-03-2012, 08:01 AM
 
Location: Vallejo
21,716 posts, read 24,949,937 times
Reputation: 18985
Huge subsidies that were paid 100% by gasoline taxes. At either rate, most public transportation had gone bankrupt and turned to the heavily subsidized municipal service model. Don't forget to direct your wrath there. FHA preference for suburban new construction was rather short lived and ignores the fact that the largest shift to suburban housing in fact occurred with streetcar suburbs and not the later highway suburbs. Suburbanization had already been going on for the better part of a century before the modern auto suburb. Interestingly, no one seems to mind suburbs. They just mind automobiles. It's not big lots or lack of walkability as the early railroad suburbs often had large lots and were very unwalkable. Nothing wrong with personal preference, I just find the "I don't like it, therefore it's bad" mentality a bit ludicrous.

An early suburb:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=river...21.02,,0,-4.78

Considering it's nearly 150 years old, when can we expect it to start to fall apart? Speaking of aging water lines, however, Sacramento had one explode perhaps a month ago or the occasional steam pipe "terrorist" attacks in NYC. I guess Manhattan is a suburb? Or was it just that suburbs will "begin" to face some of the issues that cities have always faced?

Last edited by Malloric; 09-03-2012 at 08:10 AM..
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Old 09-03-2012, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Youngstown, Oh.
5,502 posts, read 9,463,580 times
Reputation: 5606
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Huge subsidies that were paid 100% by gasoline taxes. At either rate, most public transportation had gone bankrupt and turned to the heavily subsidized municipal service model. Don't forget to direct your wrath there. FHA preference for suburban new construction was rather short lived and ignores the fact that the largest shift to suburban housing in fact occurred with streetcar suburbs and not the later highway suburbs. Suburbanization had already been going on for the better part of a century before the modern auto suburb. Interestingly, no one seems to mind suburbs. They just mind automobiles. It's not big lots or lack of walkability as the early railroad suburbs often had large lots and were very unwalkable. Nothing wrong with personal preference, I just find the "I don't like it, therefore it's bad" mentality a bit ludicrous.
When were roads fully paid for with gasoline taxes? Subsidyscope.org — Transportation: Analysis Finds Shifting Trends in Highway Funding: User Fees Make Up Decreasing Share


Quote:
An early suburb:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=river...21.02,,0,-4.78

Considering it's nearly 150 years old, when can we expect it to start to fall apart? Speaking of aging water lines, however, Sacramento had one explode perhaps a month ago or the occasional steam pipe "terrorist" attacks in NYC. I guess Manhattan is a suburb? Or was it just that suburbs will "begin" to face some of the issues that cities have always faced?
Where is the 150 year old part? Based on where you copied the streetview, it just looks like a number of estates from the 20s-30s with some later houses from the 60s-70s mixed in. Considering it also appears to have always been upscale, I doubt that they will have financial troubles anytime soon.
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Old 09-03-2012, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Vallejo
21,716 posts, read 24,949,937 times
Reputation: 18985
The federal subsidies for highways were more than 100% paid for by gas taxes for many years. Money came out of the trust fund which was funded exclusively by gasoline taxes and grew in balance only to be drained down later. Today it pays for an ever decreasing share both because of the refusal to raise gas taxes as well as the appropriation of gas tax revenue for other uses such as public transportation and deficit reduction. The suburb was built in the 1870s. Hop on redfin and you can easily find remaining housing stock for sale built in the 1800s in that neighborhood. As in any city or town, structures have been replaced. The Empire State building, for example, is from the '30s.
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Old 09-03-2012, 10:13 AM
 
10,221 posts, read 19,154,272 times
Reputation: 10886
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidv View Post
0
The financial problems of the cities will begin to plague the suburbs. The infrastructure of the suburbs will start to fall apart as they age. The oldest suburbs are already seeing these problems as public buildings and sewer and water lines are aging and will need to be replaced. Tax rates will have to rise as this happens.
Physical infrastructure costs are not a huge problem, particularly if the suburb has kept up maintenance on them. What swells suburban (and urban) budgets is the cost of people.
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Old 09-03-2012, 12:14 PM
 
Location: N. Raleigh
46 posts, read 79,082 times
Reputation: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidv View Post
People seem very passionate about either living in the city or the suburbs, each claiming a better standard of living. I read through many of the posts on this forum before I thought I would weigh in. Here are some things that I didn't see addressed, but I didn't read all 85+ pages.

Many posts argued about money. People need to remember that the growth of the suburbs was made possible by huge subsidies from the Federal government in the form of highway building and home loans. Socially, the growth was also part of racism of white flight. I am not saying that those who live in the suburbs now are racist, their growth in the 1950s - 1970s was an unanticipated consequence of school integration.

The defining characteristic of the suburbs is sprawl. Some suburbs were small towns that existed outside of the city. Over the years, the sprawl created when more people move to the suburb merged the suburb with the city. After the gaps between the city and these small towns disappeared, the suburbs sprawled in the opposite direction.

It is the sprawl that has and will continue to create problems. Suburbs are auto-centric. As the price of gasoline rises, this will diminish the quality of suburban life. Commuting into the cities will become prohibitively expensive, and the growth of auto-centric suburbs will lead to large traffic problems. The mentality of the suburbs that a person can and should have their own space and freedom to go when and where they want, manifests itself into a lot of cars with only one passenger on the highways. Forward-looking metro areas are building light rail/commuter rail systems that do not seem to make financial sense now, but will in the future.

The financial problems of the cities will begin to plague the suburbs. The infrastructure of the suburbs will start to fall apart as they age. The oldest suburbs are already seeing these problems as public buildings and sewer and water lines are aging and will need to be replaced. Tax rates will have to rise as this happens.
WOW! I don't think this can be said any better!
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Old 09-09-2012, 01:13 AM
 
Location: Tallahassee
304 posts, read 869,895 times
Reputation: 145
It could be for a multitude of reasons. I have lived in suburban neighborhoods for most of my life, but plan on moving to a city shortly. For me I think cities suit my lifestyle better.

Firstly, except when I am visiting home from school, I do not have access to a car. In a suburbs are very auto-centric and it an be rather restricting not having a car in a suburban area. When Ive visited Boston or New York I could get around very easily.It did not prohibit where I could go within the area I lived, especially in Chicago where several lines run 24/7.

As many other people have said a lot depends on your circumstances. I am young and single. Cities are often hotspots for young single people. They also are generally more diverse than rural and suburban areas. If I was older with a wife and kids I might believe the suburbs suits me better.

Cities also tend to have great nightlife, more festivals, and generally just a large variety of things to do. At the end of the day it is really a matter of taste. The suburb I live in when not at school, is pretty cool, but I as of now I prefer cities. Dont let it get to you now. Who cares what comments people make about suburbs? If you like where you live then you will be happy.
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Old 09-09-2012, 01:18 AM
 
72,874 posts, read 62,362,868 times
Reputation: 21825
Quote:
Originally Posted by tallahasseehero1 View Post
It could be for a multitude of reasons. I have lived in suburban neighborhoods for most of my life, but plan on moving to a city shortly. For me I think cities suit my lifestyle better.

Firstly, except when I am visiting home from school, I do not have access to a car. In a suburbs are very auto-centric and it an be rather restricting not having a car in a suburban area. When Ive visited Boston or New York I could get around very easily.It did not prohibit where I could go within the area I lived, especially in Chicago where several lines run 24/7.

As many other people have said a lot depends on your circumstances. I am young and single. Cities are often hotspots for young single people. They also are generally more diverse than rural and suburban areas. If I was older with a wife and kids I might believe the suburbs suits me better.

Cities also tend to have great nightlife, more festivals, and generally just a large variety of things to do. At the end of the day it is really a matter of taste. The suburb I live in when not at school, is pretty cool, but I as of now I prefer cities. Dont let it get to you now. Who cares what comments people make about suburbs? If you like where you live then you will be happy.
I live in the Atlanta metro area, the poster child for a sprawled mess. I don't have a car either. Due to a bad economy, I'm living with my parents in their exurban home. One thing about the suburbs I don't like(at least where I live) is the fact that they are so auto-centric where I live. Riding a bicycle anywhere is basically asking to get hurt severely. I'm young and single myself. I know the feeling.
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Old 09-09-2012, 01:41 AM
 
Location: Tallahassee
304 posts, read 869,895 times
Reputation: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
I live in the Atlanta metro area, the poster child for a sprawled mess. I don't have a car either. Due to a bad economy, I'm living with my parents in their exurban home. One thing about the suburbs I don't like(at least where I live) is the fact that they are so auto-centric where I live. Riding a bicycle anywhere is basically asking to get hurt severely. I'm young and single myself. I know the feeling.
I understand what you are saying. I should have stated that all cities are not equal in terms of public transportation or density levels. Northern and Western cities in my experience have better public transportation and more concentrated populations. I live near Miami (when not at school) at it is pretty bad in my opinion in terms of ease of getting around. Its too bad because there are a lot of cool places to go.

I completely agree with your opinion on the suburbs. Many of the ones I have lived in are very auto centric and tough to get around. They also tend not to have a great nightlife for younger people. Basically I find them to be really inefficient. I was reading somewhere that good public transportation systems can spur a lot of economic activity. I think more efficient suburbs could be great.
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Old 09-09-2012, 02:03 AM
 
Location: South Portland, ME
893 posts, read 1,204,371 times
Reputation: 902
IMO you simply have a lower quality of life when you live in the suburbs. Sure it seems "nice" that you have a big yard and "personal space" and all that, but if you look at it objectively:

-You have a lower level of health because you rarely exercise - you never walk anywhere, you always drive.
-You have less money to spend because it costs more to driver everywhere, since driving is expensive
-You have less to do, because everything is so spread out, so organizations rarely hold big events nearby.

Compared to a city where:

-You generally exercise more since lots of things are within walking distance, so you walk to them
-You have more money, since you aren't constantly throwing it into your gas tank
-You have more to do - festivals and big events are always nearby
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