Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-09-2012, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Brentwood, Tennessee
49,927 posts, read 59,935,627 times
Reputation: 98359

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
Kotkin fan spotted! Send out the Agenda 21 strike force!
Hardly. I didn't intend the walkable comment as a positive.

My community is the perfect example of unintended consequences.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-09-2012, 10:02 PM
 
8,673 posts, read 17,280,905 times
Reputation: 4685
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wmsn4Life View Post
Hardly. I didn't intend the walkable comment as a positive.

My community is the perfect example of unintended consequences.
Kotkin doesn't consider walkability a positive either.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2012, 11:50 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
21,876 posts, read 25,139,139 times
Reputation: 19073
Not true at all. Kotkin just doesn't consider it an imperative that 100% of all housing absolutely most be extremely walkable or the world will end and the capitalists will win. He's actually pretty pro-walkable neighborhoods, just not every neighborhood everywhere.

Is Suburbia Doomed? Not So Fast. | Newgeography.com
Walking--Not Just For Cities Anymore | The New Republic

Quote:
We need move away from 20th century concepts that confuse the conversation. If I am right, 70 to 80 percent of new development should be in walkable urban places, and my research leads me to think the majority of that development will be in the suburbs.
Just on a tangent, I think that's the problem that most urban planners have, especially the theorist variety rather than the nuts and bolts types. They think that their job is to design around ivory tower principles of what they feel is right regardless of what people want. We live in a mostly freemarket economy, not a command economy. Command economy approaches will not work. Kotkin is more guilty of this than most. Probably because it pays to be polarizing.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2012, 12:01 AM
 
8,673 posts, read 17,280,905 times
Reputation: 4685
And during the era when suburban development was driven more by the free market, the late 19th and early 20th century, suburbs were a lot more walkable and featured lots of streetcars! Meanwhile, the unwalkable places were the product of massive federal development programs. So which is the free-market product and which is the product of a command economy?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2012, 01:34 AM
 
Location: Vallejo
21,876 posts, read 25,139,139 times
Reputation: 19073
Massive federal development programs that were fully funded by gasoline taxes, a user fee. If you didn't want to pay the fee, you merely didn't live in the suburbs where gas was required to get around. Contemporary suburban development was far more free market than contemporary urban renewal development, which was also tried in the post-war period.

By the time the highways were being built, the streetcars had long since gone bankrupt, bought up by private bus operators which were later socialized, or just socialized directly and converted to bus lines. The fixed-fare, monopoly-rights streetcar was ancient history by the time post-war developing was raging. While interesting that the laissez-faire development was more free market than any development today, it's rather abstract and really the answer to nothing. It's just a more absurd than most example of the correlation-causation paradox. The free market equilibrium during the Colonial Period was not the equilibrium during the Industrial Revolution was not the equilibrium during the streetcar era is not the equilibrium today.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2012, 07:40 AM
 
3,417 posts, read 3,072,806 times
Reputation: 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by frischee112 View Post
How do/can governments, organizations, and/or people do to beat naysayers and Not In My Back Yarders?
I'm not sure there is a certain way to beat NIMBY people. The best you can do is try to come up with the best project you can think of, and just prepare for the obstacles you'll face. You are dealing with irrational people. They think very differently than just about everybody else in this country, and they also feel they should tell you how you should live. Remember these are people who hate anything that doesn't involve walking. Everything in their world is only a "5-10" minute walk from their 200 sq. ft apartment/condo/rowhouse. They are always going to be the loudest and will try to stop anything involves giving people options other than walking. When you have irrational people like that, they will always be tough to beat.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2012, 07:42 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
32,101 posts, read 34,714,145 times
Reputation: 15093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wmsn4Life View Post
I'm also glad that, in the small city where I live, those I know in "the political machine" don't take well to bribery. It's a stereotype, but it's not the norm. Tax revenues carry a lot of influence here; corruption, not so much.
I'm not talking about bribery. I'm talking more about promises of campaign finance and/or potential pecuniary benefits later down the road. With a few exceptions, the era of walking into a politician's office with a briefcase full of money is over (in the U.S. anyway).

All of the people working in City Hall, DOJ, the Governor's Office, the SEC, FERC, etc. are hoping for a payout one day. They want to leverage their expertise and relationships to get paid. That's today's "bribery." It's very much a quid pro quo where you look out for their interests while you're in government, and they'll look out for your interests when you want that plush six-figure job. That's the revolving door that keeps on turning and turning and turning.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2012, 08:12 AM
 
Location: NYC
7,301 posts, read 13,514,699 times
Reputation: 3714
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
With a few exceptions, the era of walking into a politician's office with a briefcase full of money is over (in the U.S. anyway).

.
I'm pretty sure that still happens regularly in Chicago.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-10-2012, 09:20 AM
 
8,673 posts, read 17,280,905 times
Reputation: 4685
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Massive federal development programs that were fully funded by gasoline taxes, a user fee. If you didn't want to pay the fee, you merely didn't live in the suburbs where gas was required to get around. Contemporary suburban development was far more free market than contemporary urban renewal development, which was also tried in the post-war period.
Factually untrue--remember, we're not just talking about highways, but also about FHA and VA home loans, accelerated depreciation for commercial building, electrification and water infrastructure programs. And a lot of highway miles were paid for by means other than gas taxes, justified as defense expenditures.

Quote:
By the time the highways were being built, the streetcars had long since gone bankrupt, bought up by private bus operators which were later socialized, or just socialized directly and converted to bus lines. The fixed-fare, monopoly-rights streetcar was ancient history by the time post-war developing was raging. While interesting that the laissez-faire development was more free market than any development today, it's rather abstract and really the answer to nothing. It's just a more absurd than most example of the correlation-causation paradox. The free market equilibrium during the Colonial Period was not the equilibrium during the Industrial Revolution was not the equilibrium during the streetcar era is not the equilibrium today.
Factually untrue. Federal highways were being constructed in the 1920s, smaller than the postwar projects but national in scope. To suggest that no highways were being built until after World War II is factually incorrect. Long-distance highways weren't the competition for streetcars anyhow--they were the competition for private long-haul passenger trains, which were very much still in existence in the 1950s and 60s.

The competition for private streetcar companies was provided by the public road projects of the 1920s and 30s, spurred by the "Good Roads" movement of the early 1900s, and not paid for by gas taxes. Streetcar companies went bankrupt because of government sponsored competition and deliberate, observable and often quite well-documented efforts to drive them out of business. Dismissing the observable development patterns of the early 20th century is a handwave to disguise the fact that the supposed "conservatives" are in love with public-funded highways.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-11-2017, 05:45 PM
 
1,122 posts, read 925,470 times
Reputation: 660
how to defeat the nimby's......


My God if we only knew.......
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:26 PM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top