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Anyway, I'm pretty much in agreement with Oycrumbler, although I think Chicago is #2. San Francisco, Boston and Philly's urban nabes are an easy match for Chicago's, but The Loop puts Chicago over the top. IMO the third most impressive collection of skyscrapers on Earth, and that has to count for something. SF/PHI/LA/BOS can be slotted any way you prefer. I personally give to L.A. It's densest urban nabes are far and away the weakest of the four, but they're there and they're every bit as dense as the others, perceptions be damned. That and L.A.'s massive size and uniform density (95 cities/neighborhoods in L.A. county with +10,000 psm density) put IT over the top IMO, although I can see good cases for the others as well.
The urban form is an issue though.
Something else did come to my attention since previous arguments about Shoup's articles and enforced minimums of parking spaces in LA though. I realized that the parking allotments and zoning regulations just didn't seem to jive with my actual experience of downtown LA compared to what Bajan was pointing out had to be the experience I had. Think about it a bit more, I think we should find out when those restrictions actually came into place. My hunch is that in much of the Central region (especially downtown LA), the downtown regions of cities that were annexed by Los Angeles and much of the West Side were actually built well before those (admittedly way overzealous) regulations came into place and with subsequent buildings forced to make parking spaces into massive multifloor parking complexes (maybe they should do some shops on the ground level?) as compensation of sorts.
Something else did come to my attention since previous arguments about Shoup's articles and enforced minimums of parking spaces in LA though. I realized that the parking allotments and zoning regulations just didn't seem to jive with my actual experience of downtown LA compared to what Bajan was pointing out had to be the experience I had. Think about it a bit more, I think we should find out when those restrictions actually came into place. My hunch is that in much of the Central region (especially downtown LA), the downtown regions of cities that were annexed by Los Angeles and much of the West Side were actually built well before those (admittedly way overzealous) regulations came into place.
Probably early 1900s, though LA lost some of its downtown to urban renewal and teardowns for parking garages.
I agree that LA's commercial corridors are much more suburban in appearance than the residential corridors... Maybe shift the streetview to a residential street: Koreatown, Los Angeles, CA - Google Maps
This is the same street...all I did was cross 3rd Street. Talk about cherrypicking.
There are no non-residential institutions here to give the structural density a boost. So what accounts for the dramatic difference in the built environment despite the lower population density?
Because you were talking about density stats with people per square mile. It gives you an idea of why such a densely built neighborhood like Kensington might be statistically less dense than what you experience. I think it's a pretty direct way of addressing you being perplexed with the stats. The same with the living spaces of a cramped or smaller living spaces--it alters the stats for it.
I seriously don't think that's the reason. There are several areas of London that have a greater structural density than Koreatown and yet have a much lower population density (and a conspicuous absence of non-residential institutions) than Kensington. Kensington is not obviously more urban than Koreatown simply because it houses a few museums.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
You did choose a weird street though. It was barely just in the neighborhood on the literal boundary of it rather than close towards the center. You don't think that's odd?
I typed in "Koreatown" in Google, clicked the map, and then dragged the little yellow guy down onto one of the streets. I did the same for Kensington. And it proved my point. One of the big differences between, say, Back Bay, SoHo or Kensington and Koreatown is that those neighborhoods don't have any streets that look like that. You rarely here anyone scream, "Oh no! You cherrypicked a horrible part of NoLiTa I have no reason to go to!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
Of course, this isn't to say that LA is more urban than London or Koreatown is more urban than Kensington--the only match of London is NYC in the US. However, you were talking about how stats don't jive with perception and I addressed bits of why that is.
You addressed it, but I don't think that explains it. There's a conspicuous absence of parking in central London, NYC, Paris, Boston, etc. That goes a longer way toward explaining the difference than the presence or absence of non-residential institutions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
Of course, this isn't against London--this is against the other cities in the US and LA.
The point is simple: similar population densities, dissimilar degrees of urbanity.
I seriously don't think that's the reason. There are several areas of London that have a greater structural density than Koreatown and yet have a much lower population density (and a conspicuous absence of non-residential institutions) than Kensington. Kensington is not obviously more urban than Koreatown simply because it houses a few museums.
There are no non-residential institutions here to give the structural density a boost. So what accounts for the dramatic difference in the built environment despite the lower population density?
Well, the census tract you chose in the second location has a density of 25k, so....
The one I picked has a density of 60k, and is more representative of Koreatown (and is literally across the street). Look at the aerial, you picked the one area in Koreatown that is bungalows. I'm cherrypicking?
Don't get me wrong, I don't find Koreatown to be as urban-feeling as Kensington. The large apartment sizes in Kensington sound like the reason for the density-disparity.
Well, the census tract you chose in the second location has a density of 25k, so....
LOL. The Census tract I chose? I literally walked to the other side of 3rd street...not even a full block's distance. That's the tract YOU chose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchitup
The one I picked has a density of 60k, and is more representative of Koreatown. Look at the aerial, you picked the one area in Koreatown that is bungalows. I'm cherrypicking?
Yes. I think you present the absolutely most flattering streetviews you can find, which all boosters do. But it doesn't really matter anyway because you could choose any streetview of Koreatown, high density and all, and it would not match the urbanity of any given section of London. Even the lower density sections of London would strike most people as more urban than the highest density sections of Koreatown. But I guess that perception would just be the product of British Isle urbanity bias.
LOL. The Census tract I chose? I literally walked to the other side of 3rd street...not even a full block's distance. That's the tract YOU chose.
Yes. I think you present the absolutely most flattering streetviews you can find, which all boosters do. But it doesn't really matter anyway because you could choose any streetview of Koreatown, high density and all, and it would not match the urbanity of any given section of London. Even the lower density sections of London would strike most people as more urban than the highest density sections of Koreatown. But I guess that perception would just be the product of British Isle urbanity bias.
The streetview I chose and the streetview you chose are in two different census tracts. I actually made your point more relevant by picking an area / census tract with a higher density than Kensington (~60k), and one that I agree looks less urban than Kensington (as NEI and I have said at least 4 times now, probably because the massive apartments in Kensington).
You went across the street to a (IMO gorgeous) Craftsmen bungalow belt, which still has the density of most rowhouse neighborhoods in Philly at about 25k. BUT, at 25k that area is at a lower density than Kensington, so your point is moot. Kensington looks more dense than that part of Koreatown because, well, it is.
BTW I didn't think you were actually cherrypicking, just annoyed that you would accuse me of it. Most of Koreatown looks like the area I posted.
Don't get me wrong, I don't find Koreatown to be as urban-feeling as Kensington. The large apartment sizes in Kensington sound like the reason for the density-disparity.
This is total speculation. As nei pointed out, many of those apartments were built before Los Angeles even had 500 people. I'm fairly confident that the disparity is not attributable to larger apartment sizes in Kensington.
Kensington looks more dense than that part of Koreatown because, well, it is.
Kensington is approximately 30,000 ppsm. That's not significantly higher than 25,000 ppsm, but yet the difference in the built environment is astonishing. Is there some magical line that's crossed at the 30,000 ppsm point where a neighborhood goes from auto-centric, strip mall utopia to a walker's paradise?
The population density makes no material difference here. As I stated above, there are London neighborhoods that are considerably less dense than Koreatown but yet are significantly more urban by any reasonable standard. The difference ostensibly lies in LA's ruthless accommodation of the automobile. Nothing more, nothing less.
And BTW, most of our discussion of LA revolves around the "core." If Koreatown (the most urban nabe in LA) has suburban-looking streets like that, then what does the rest of the city have to offer?
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