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It just depends on how you look at things. Dallas and Houston are both more densely developed (commercial, residential, etc) than Atlanta over a much larger area. After you leave Atlanta's core the development style drops very fast.
In Dallas, you have Downtown and Uptown right up against each other while in Atlanta the distance from the heart of downtown to the heart of Midtown is a bit more spread out. You also have a cluster in Dallas of Downtown, Uptown/Victory Park, Oak Lawn, Knox-Henderson, Deep Ellum, etc. in a tight radius around the core. Each of these areas rarely have many single family homes which can even be found in large numbers in the Midtown area of Atlanta and. Imagine if Atlantic Station had been built right in Midtown rather than across the freeway.
I just think the development style in the big Texas cities is a lot more California than it is Piedmont. As you find a defined grid with wide thoroughfares, larger range of multi-family housing, alleyways and more extensive freeway systems.
I will say as Austin gets larger I think it will grow a lot more in the fashion of the Atlanta area than it will of it's instate siblings.
Atlanta's core it self just the core is more urban than thoes cities. First off Midtown and Downtown are large areas in itself, it's a about as big as all of those Dallas neighborhoods you just name it area. Then most of those Single family homes your talking about have tiny lots and on the street. Cabbagetown, Sweet Auburn like neighborhoods it's pretty urban. Dallas and Houston actually don't have many neighborhoods like those. Houston has weird zoning so it's hard to explain you can a medium size lots single home with multi-family housing next door with a duplex next to that. Dallas is very similar except it's more centralize with multi-family housing especially northwest of Downtown in Oak Lawn and the Uptown area.
Dallas and Houston have a larger area of medium size lots. As kidphilly pointed out Atlanta is like a less dense minic of East coast cities I guess that's the best way of describing it, urban center than less dense outward. Houston and Dallas more followed LA you can travel through and lots will barely change. I will say running around most of these Dallas and Houston will feel larger overall but moving around just the core Atlanta does.
I actually used to imagine of Texas metros as the epitome of sprawl. Never been to Texas nor to Atlanta. I created this graph several months ago of the densities (by census tract) people live in of various urban areas:
From the graph you can see Atlanta has a much lower residential population density than Houston (didn't do Dallas but I suspect it's similar to Dallas). The similar colors can be confusing; Houston is similar to the red and green lines but a bit lower in density.
4 of you will get reps from me, if you don't get it then it's because I am not allowed to rep you at this time. So I'll just name the 4 of you because I truly believe you 4 have outstanding knowledge of these 3 places being compared. You're traveled in all 3 cities and it SHOWS (nei for the chart). I'm very impressed with chiatldal, R1070, nei, and kidphilly.
Atlanta's core 5 miles especially it's midtown are a league above the core 5 miles of Houston or Dallas even if those 2 are more densely populated. That level of infrastructure and vibrancy outpace the Texas two. But after the core 5 miles, it's complete Dallas and Houston take over and it shows. The Texas two are very vibrant and continuously built up from areas further out of the core compared to Atlanta.
nei would you be able to make a chart with Dallas? I'm loving this chart.
The Urbanized area and density of it are pretty telling - both DFW and Houston are like 50% more dense when compared to Atlanta, which I believe among the 10/11 largest MSAs is the lowest density by a decent margin
Also just by feel Atlanta is most spread.
I will caveat that to the open space isnt all that bad as continuous 3-5K development to me is possible the worst of both worlds but on feel and time in both would think Atlanta has the most space sparwaled with lowest density of the majors - though there are examples all over the US and in basically every metro
This is another thing I was knocking at because it misleading further you go out the least dense it is, so if you measure metros or urban areas in different sizes Atlanta turn out at the bottom because of size.
It's misleading because just in 1,800 sq mi Atlanta would be the 12 largest metro basically you can take the sprawl away and Atlanta still would be one of the largest in population. In 1,800 sq mi Atlanta is actually one of the most dense region in the country but all that is skrew because your adding the sprawl which cause density to drop.
My point is Atlanta MSA is a little over 5 million in 8,000 sq mi
Mean while Atlanta is nearly 5 million in 5,000 sq mi.
Atlanta has over 3.5 million in 1,800 sq mi that's more than Denver, Portland, Pittsburgh and Seattle whole MSAs in about 1/3 there area. Atlanta in a radius bases in the same area is dramatically denser then them. Atlanta is less dense then them on that chart because it's measuring whole urban areas with different sizes. On the ground it not like that post a chart showing density by radius.
I telling you right now LA, Boston and Houston would be denser then the Atlanta area, but Denver, Portland, Pittsburgh and Seattle.... No. Cap them to a radius there's a big difference.
Last edited by chiatldal; 06-13-2012 at 06:48 AM..
4 of you will get reps from me, if you don't get it then it's because I am not allowed to rep you at this time. So I'll just name the 4 of you because I truly believe you 4 have outstanding knowledge of these 3 places being compared. You're traveled in all 3 cities and it SHOWS (nei for the chart). I'm very impressed with chiatldal, R1070, nei, and kidphilly.
Atlanta's core 5 miles especially it's midtown are a league above the core 5 miles of Houston or Dallas even if those 2 are more densely populated. That level of infrastructure and vibrancy outpace the Texas two. But after the core 5 miles, it's complete Dallas and Houston take over and it shows. The Texas two are very vibrant and continuously built up from areas further out of the core compared to Atlanta.
nei would you be able to make a chart with Dallas? I'm loving this chart.
Thank you for the rep. I'm not real sure about the bolded point though. Within a five mile radius of downtown Atlanta you run into the very wooded, single family home neighborhoods, many without sidewalks and with winding two lane roads.
As for vibrancy. Uptown Dallas is really unique for a southern city. It has a lot of aspects already in place that central Atlanta are trying hard to create.
1) Extensive high quality jogging/biking/parkway system(Katy trail in Dallas, Beltline in the works in Atlanta)
2) Urban shopping areas (West Village in Dallas, Midtown Mile in the works in Atlanta)
3) Cohesive nightlife (Uptown nightlife/restaurant scene is more cohesive and easy to walk or cab and the trolleys are free)
4) Continuous, dense residential (Dallas' State-Thomas and West Village areas of Uptown are more in line with the Midtown vision of how it wants to develop).
5) Trolley/Streetcar system (Dallas' M-Line Trolley, which is free to riders)
Knox-Henderson and Oak Lawn in Dallas rival areas of Atlanta's core as well in terms of nightlife, shopping, restaurants, etc. Dallas is just more divided up into smaller neighborhoods and packed in. It does give the central Dallas neighborhoods more of a distinct vibe from neighborhood to neighborhood in a smaller radius than I feel like you get in Atlanta since Midtown is so big and spread out. Atlanta has done a great job with its central core streetscape along Peachtree and other major thoroughfares. Dallas is just now getting more into this it seems. Atlanta is definitely further along in this regard.
The urban school districts in Dallas and Houston are not good. Dallas is probably the worst large school district in Texas. Very few families middle class and above have any interest in living in areas served by the main school districts. People without children of school age might choose differently.
I wonder of people think LA (or Houston) would be a better place if the city was more dense, ala Hong Kong or Tokyo or New York? Would its citizens be happier, safer, more productive, and better able to raise their families?
I wonder of people think LA (or Houston) would be a better place if the city was more dense, ala Hong Kong or Tokyo or New York? Would its citizens be happier, safer, more productive, and better able to raise their families?
In LA, no way. LA is already very dense (not to the level of Hong Kong or NYC) for American standards. In fact it is arguably the second or third densest city in the US once you look beyond standard density (i.e. census tracts above 20k ppsm, % of pop. living above 20k, weighted density). What LA needs is not more population density, but a focus on multi-modal infrastructure planning (thankfully is exactly what is happening).
Houston, Dallas and Atlanta are all significantly lower density than Los Angeles, no matter how you look at it. Do I think they would be better places if they were more dense? I don't really think so... They seem to be attracting a ton of people the way they are.
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