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Belmar appears to have kept the street grid fairly intact. No loop roads. Me gusta.
Appears to be sidewalks. Me gusta.
It's about 1/3 surface parking. No me gusta.
It has both a West Virginia Avenue and a West Virginia Place. SOMEONE on the engineering team was a Mountaineer!
It reminds me of Northgate in Seattle, a mall in an ocean of parking that has tried to become more "urban" as high land values have made that excess parking attractive to developers.
If big box shopping and an ocean of surface parking is a necessary evil, I'd prefer this type of it. I don't fear for the Google Streetview Man's life when piloting him around.
Comments:
Such as the grid is. You note a West Virginia Ave. and a W. VA Place. There's probably also a W. VA circle somewhere, a W. VA Drive, etc. I was a visiting nurse in that area years ago, before GPS. It's hell.
For ages, I have said on this forum that the vast majority of the suburbs out here have sidewalks. No one wants to believe me.
Yeah, car centric, big surprise.
Re: West Virginia, West Virginia, if you'll note, there are a lot of state names in that part of the grid. Maybe you're right.
I've never been to Northgate.
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Originally Posted by nei
What makes you consider the neighborhood an abomination?
Where to start? It's in the middle of suburbia. It's surrounded by rows and rows of old 40s/50s/60s ranch houses. It's trying to be hip. The stores are boring; for the most part you could find them in any mall in Denver. It has a Whole Foods, which I have a personal b**** against. https://www.belmarcolorado.com/shopping.php
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Originally Posted by MantaRay
other typical apartment complexes across the US? Same as the main difference in suburban TND and typical suburbia- walkability.
I've been to Lowry and Lowry has SFHs, which typical apartments won't. Typical is the same general suburban concept of uses separated and you have to use a car to go between them. Like I said everywhere you look in Denver suburbs they have built TNDs, making them a pioneer since everywhere you look in most US cities suburbs, you're hard pressed to find TNDs let alone find them in abundance. Lowry just adds yet another Denver example proving my point.
Actually I found plenty of pedestrian/bike trails connecting those neighborhoods to other parts of the city, not to mention sidewalks connecting them to retail in the area, and that CERTAINLY is not the case with typical suburbia. They may not be your idea of perfection, but they are light years' distance ahead of typical suburbia. As is Denver metro ahead of typical metro USA.
I don't know what you have against suburbia getting some base elements of urban neighborhood planning. Do you dislike suburban use of those elements simply because it isn't a "Copy...Paste" of urban neighborhoods? What's not to like about suburbia increasing density, walkability, and thus embracing a change from its typical suburban low density, separated use, non-walkable recent history?
Lowry is not suburbia; it's in the city. If you look at the aerial view, you'll see plenty of cars parked around the apts. The apts are nothing special. I mean, they're nice, but they're expensive, and I've seen similar in other, non-NU areas of Denver. The shopping is mediocre. Again, stores you could find at any mall, not even a dept. store. Plenty of parking around the stores. My niece used to live there. Their lifestyle did not differ significantly from mine. If anything, I probably walk MORE.
I have told this forum countless times that the Denver burbs (which Lowry isn't, anyway) HAVE SIDEWALKS! They also have trails and such. Please look at this map of MY suburb. See the paths and trails (ironically, NOT in Old Town). Many have been extant since we moved to Louisville in 1982. louisville colorado map - Google Maps
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Such as the grid is. You note a West Virginia Ave. and a W. VA Place. There's probably also a W. VA circle somewhere, a W. VA Drive, etc. I was a visiting nurse in that area years ago, before GPS. It's hell.
For ages, I have said on this forum that the vast majority of the suburbs out here have sidewalks. No one wants to believe me.
I believed you! Ive been to the Denver suburbs. Quite impressed with their grid and sidewalks. A lot of western suburbs are more walkable than their eastern counterparts at least as far as safety is concerned
Just making a joke about WV. I know a planner from WV and if given the chance he'd name everything he could after his home state.
I think the problem with "TNDs" is they are an attempt to ape a neighborhood form which came about for reasons which were well-understood at the time, and perhaps not so well now. There's a cargo-cultish aspect about them, as if the developers and boosters thing that by re-creating the surface characteristics of the neighborhoods they like can create a neighborhood like them.
As I've said about Transit Oriented Development, it's the difference between a mall and a main street -- you can dress up one to look like the other but it doesn't change what you have.
Although I think a lot of the developers actually understand this and just cynically sell them anyway.
It's odd for me to hear mid $300s as not a middle class housing price. Where I grew up, that would be a below average housing price.
In the South median prices tend to run around $150. The typical suburban neighborhoods in my area are $140 to $240 for two car garage homes. Duplexes along middle class roads are around $100. Small single car garage homes along those roads go for about $120. If you're above $250 around here then you're in an upper class neighborhood, ie you're in the 10 percent.
Differences in median prices between regions always shows up in the economic statistics. The northeast is the most expensive region, followed by the west, with the Midwest middle of the pack and the southwest and southeast the least expensive regions. Middle class pricing is different based on what region or city you're in. Californians are moving from average homes to my hometown of Nashville and are able to afford McMansions. That's why it's offensive for me to see all these southern TNDs with pricing comparable to Denver TNDs.
I think the problem with "TNDs" is they are an attempt to ape a neighborhood form which came about for reasons which were well-understood at the time, and perhaps not so well now. There's a cargo-cultish aspect about them, as if the developers and boosters thing that by re-creating the surface characteristics of the neighborhoods they like can create a neighborhood like them.
Well said - some of the TNDs near me look like Disney World and have the same creepy feeling - but it's better than the alternative sprawling crap. You can't build an old neighborhood - you have to build a new one and *if it's any good*, it will be a highly desirable old one in 75 years. TNDs are a start.
For ages, I have said on this forum that the vast majority of the suburbs out here have sidewalks.
Like I said, pioneer.
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Originally Posted by Katiana
Lowry is not suburbia; it's in the city.
It is in Denver proper, but it is not in downtown Denver nor is it adjacent to downtown Denver. It is something like 4 miles outside of downtown. It is closer to the "early" outer loop 225 than it is to downtown. (of course Denver has grown and has a new outer loop now)
My point is about what you do and don't see once you get away from the downtown area. I'm not trying to debate the specific definition of where suburbia starts or debate when does suburbia begin in the city proper and when are they two disctinctly different places. I'm pointing out how Denver is a pioneer in developing its neighborhoods as you move away from the city center, and your comment about suburban sidewalks in the area basically makes my point. Typical suburbia in the US doesn't have sidewalks, at least not in any meaningful way. So when it DOES, that is a big deal and is indicative of a city being far ahead of most US cities. Lowry, Belmar, Bradburn, Stapleton all prove my point. You mention Loiusville has PUDs and Louisville is just outside the Denver outer loop. The details you provide are basically supporting the point I'm making. Walkability and density and mixed uses in suburban US neighborhood planning is rare, and Denver has this throughout its suburbs. Likewise TNDs with middle class offerings in the US are rare, and Denver has these throughout its metro.
Like I said, pioneer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana
If you look at the aerial view, you'll see plenty of cars parked around the apts. The apts are nothing special. I mean, they're nice, but they're expensive, and I've seen similar in other, non-NU areas of Denver. The shopping is mediocre. Again, stores you could find at any mall, not even a dept. store.
Well a personal opinion on the value or quality of the amenities is all well and good, but it doesn't change the fact that the amenities exist, doesn't change the fact that urban planning concepts ARE in Denver suburbs, and doesn't change the fact that they are SCARCE in most of the rest of the nation's suburbs. To me, walkable and mixed use, and green space in the suburbs is a huge improvement FOR the suburbs, and Denver is clearly ahead of most of the nation in that regard.
I've looked at the aerial view and walked the streets in Lowry. I even happened upon a real estate agent while I was visiting who gave me and my wife a tour of one of the model (single family) homes. I liked Lowry. But I liked Stapleton better. And I could buy a house in Stapleton for about what I could buy one in these South Carolina wealthy enclave country clubs that just happen to have TND planning in them.
It is an urban legend that the suburbs don't have sidewalks. That is true in the NE, and perhaps the SE (where I have spent little time), but it's not true in most of the country.
If you want to believe Denver is such a pioneer, go ahead. That is the University of Denver's mascot, BTW.
The problem is that it's cupcake urbanism, and needs to be for the economics of development. To be honest, while the suburbs urban form is inefficient, we can't build urban affordable housing, only older housing becomes affordable to the poor, new housing very rarely ever is.
It is an urban legend that the suburbs don't have sidewalks. That is true in the NE, and perhaps the SE (where I have spent little time), but it's not true in most of the country.
It's not an urban legend if from you're from a place where sidewalk-less suburbs are common. The country is big, people aren't always familiar with all of it nor are they generalizing about the entire country.
But even in the Northeast, many if not most suburbs have sidewalks excluding quiet residential streets. I assume the SE is less so.
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