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The entire western US has sidewalks in the suburbs, that is, west of about Ohio.
The entire western US does not have suburban sidewalks and pedestrian/bike trails connecting suburbs to each other and to downtown and a Stapleton and a Belmar and a Lowry and a Bradburn with mixing of uses and green space and walkable retail. I have family in St Louis and it is no Denver. I have family in LA and even just got back from visiting there this summer and it is no Denver. I have been to Phoenix and to Tucson, and Denver is ahead of them in this type of suburban development. But sure some cities do a decent job like Minneapolis or Boulder or San Francisco. Nevertheless Denver is still further along than almost the rest of the US, and thus is a pioneer in the widespread adoption of this phenomenon. You can try to sell Denver short all you want for whatever reasons you have (which I would still like to know what they are) but the evidence is there and can even be seen from google maps satellite view.
There is a REASON you have had such difficulty convincing people, according to you, that Denver suburbs have sidewalks all over the place. The reason is that it is that rare as US cities go, thus making Denver a pioneer. Your own admissions demonstrate my point.
I think the problem with "TNDs" is they are an attempt to ape a neighborhood form which came about for reasons which were well-understood at the time, and perhaps not so well now. There's a cargo-cultish aspect about them, as if the developers and boosters thing that by re-creating the surface characteristics of the neighborhoods they like can create a neighborhood like them..
They can create a neighborhood that is walkable and that consumes less acreage per home like is typical in urban neighborhoods, thus reducing the sprawl characteristic. That ALL BY ITSELF is worth the hype, considering how suburbs have been built over the past 5 or 6 decades. Are not the problems of suburban sprawl well understood in today's time?
The problem is that it's cupcake urbanism, and needs to be for the economics of development.
I think too many people wrongly assume that it attempts to BE urbanism but falls short. That is the wrong view, and so cupcake urbanism misjudges the purpose. The purpose is to take ASPECTS of urban planning and apply them to the suburban landscape, not to recreate the urban landscape. Everywhere doesn't have to be the city center. The problem is that urbanites who rightly slam the sprawl model also want to slam the new urbanism model as well just because it isn't fully urban. Every place in our cities does not have to be urban. The PURPOSE/GOAL is to make the suburbs more walkable and to mitigate growth/sprawl problems with smart neighborhood planning. To the extent those 2 objectives gets accomplished, so what if the resulting neighborhoods fall short of copying the urban landscape? Why is that a big deal?
The entire western US does not have suburban sidewalks and pedestrian/bike trails connecting suburbs to each other and to downtown and a Stapleton and a Belmar and a Lowry and a Bradburn with mixing of uses and green space and walkable retail. I have family in St Louis and it is no Denver. I have family in LA and even just got back from visiting there this summer and it is no Denver. I have been to Phoenix and to Tucson, and Denver is ahead of them in this type of suburban development. But sure some cities do a decent job like Minneapolis or Boulder or San Francisco. Nevertheless Denver is still further along than almost the rest of the US, and thus is a pioneer in the widespread adoption of this phenomenon. You can try to sell Denver short all you want for whatever reasons you have (which I would still like to know what they are) but the evidence is there and can even be seen from google maps satellite view.
There is a REASON you have had such difficulty convincing people, according to you, that Denver suburbs have sidewalks all over the place. The reason is that it is that rare as US cities go, thus making Denver a pioneer. Your own admissions demonstrate my point.
You are going to be very disappointed if/when you move out here. It's not mecca, like you seem to think it is. Not to mention, you are making this very personal, with your talk of my "admissions".
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 11-27-2012 at 08:41 AM..
To the extent those 2 objectives gets accomplished, so what if the resulting neighborhoods fall short of copying the urban landscape? Why is that a big deal?
Style. Much urban planning seems concerned with style and projecting an image.
The entire western US does not have suburban sidewalks and pedestrian/bike trails connecting suburbs to each other and to downtown and a Stapleton and a Belmar and a Lowry and a Bradburn with mixing of uses and green space and walkable retail. I have family in St Louis and it is no Denver. I have family in LA and even just got back from visiting there this summer and it is no Denver. I have been to Phoenix and to Tucson, and Denver is ahead of them in this type of suburban development. But sure some cities do a decent job like Minneapolis or Boulder or San Francisco. Nevertheless Denver is still further along than almost the rest of the US, and thus is a pioneer in the widespread adoption of this phenomenon. You can try to sell Denver short all you want for whatever reasons you have (which I would still like to know what they are) but the evidence is there and can even be seen from google maps satellite view.
There is a REASON you have had such difficulty convincing people, according to you, that Denver suburbs have sidewalks all over the place. The reason is that it is that rare as US cities go, thus making Denver a pioneer. Your own admissions demonstrate my point.
I haven't been all over the country, but I can speak for the suburbs in my state and around Chicago, most subdivisions have sidewalks, I never really thought twice about sidewalks and assumed there are everywhere.
When I was in Georgia, Ohio, New Jersey, they had sidewalks. Maybe I was just in the right places I don't know lol. I didn't know sidewalks weren't common if they aren't.
I think too many people wrongly assume that it attempts to BE urbanism but falls short. That is the wrong view, and so cupcake urbanism misjudges the purpose. The purpose is to take ASPECTS of urban planning and apply them to the suburban landscape, not to recreate the urban landscape. Everywhere doesn't have to be the city center. The problem is that urbanites who rightly slam the sprawl model also want to slam the new urbanism model as well just because it isn't fully urban. Every place in our cities does not have to be urban. The PURPOSE/GOAL is to make the suburbs more walkable and to mitigate growth/sprawl problems with smart neighborhood planning. To the extent those 2 objectives gets accomplished, so what if the resulting neighborhoods fall short of copying the urban landscape? Why is that a big deal?
I wish the people who planned things here were smarter. I know we are the car state but I still don't get why they thought to have everything so spread out.
When I was in Georgia, Ohio, New Jersey, they had sidewalks. Maybe I was just in the right places I don't know lol. I didn't know sidewalks weren't common if they aren't.
Never been in Georgia or Ohio but in New Jersey, some suburbs have sidewalks on residential streets some don't. I'd say most do. My parent's neighborhood didn't but the lots were big and the traffic light, I don't think think it needs sidewalks. Almost all busier streets and commercial streets have sidewalks in the Northeastern suburbs I'm familiar with.
Of no sidewalks, it looks like the more "suburban" neighborhoods of Northern Europe (Scandinavia & the Baltic Countries in particular) sometimes lack sidewalks
From my observations, most suburban neighborhoods near Milwaukee do not have sidewalks.
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