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Old 01-19-2013, 03:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81 View Post
How do you define sprawl? How does the guy next to you define sprawl?

Is all sprawl created equal?

Strike three, pal. You're out.
Golly, what does that mean?

 
Old 01-19-2013, 05:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Many suburbs are separately incorporated. What's your point?
That some criticize suburbanites because they want better schools. My point is that streetcar suburbs often have them too.
 
Old 01-19-2013, 06:00 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 17 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,992 posts, read 102,568,112 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pvande55 View Post
That some criticize suburbanites because they want better schools. My point is that streetcar suburbs often have them too.
And? Did anyone ever say otherwise?

"Streetcar suburbs" have become a mantra here, a sort of legitimate excuse for living in a suburb.
 
Old 01-19-2013, 08:46 PM
 
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I'm really confused. Streetcar suburbs have different housing, urban form, commercial use, and transportation characteristics (and probably some others I'm not thinking of) from post World War 2 automobile based suburbs. Is there any dispute about that? Streetcar suburbs are more likely than post WW2 suburbs to be located within the metropolitan central city. To some people on this list that makes them not suburbs at all, but I don't agree with that.

Streetcar suburbs are a 19th-early 20th Century expression of the American suburban impulse, the desire to build separated residential communities away from the hurly burly of the metropolitan core. For most of the period (roughly 1890-1920) that most streetcar suburbs were built there was no zoning to separate land uses, presumably making the desire for geographic separation all the stronger. Streetcar suburbs are in fact what many "New Urbanists" are seeking to recreate.

In the Bay Area, it's really not hard to distinguish a streetcar suburb like Albany from a postwar auto suburb like Hayward.
 
Old 01-19-2013, 09:58 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 17 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,992 posts, read 102,568,112 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlite View Post
I'm really confused. Streetcar suburbs have different housing, urban form, commercial use, and transportation characteristics (and probably some others I'm not thinking of) from post World War 2 automobile based suburbs. Is there any dispute about that? Streetcar suburbs are more likely than post WW2 suburbs to be located within the metropolitan central city. To some people on this list that makes them not suburbs at all, but I don't agree with that.

Streetcar suburbs are a 19th-early 20th Century expression of the American suburban impulse, the desire to build separated residential communities away from the hurly burly of the metropolitan core. For most of the period (roughly 1890-1920) that most streetcar suburbs were built there was no zoning to separate land uses, presumably making the desire for geographic separation all the stronger. Streetcar suburbs are in fact what many "New Urbanists" are seeking to recreate.

In the Bay Area, it's really not hard to distinguish a streetcar suburb like Albany from a postwar auto suburb like Hayward.
No, streetcar suburbs are not located in the metropolitan central city. Those areas are called "residential city neighborhoods". Squirrel Hill in Pittsburgh is one such neighborhood. NO ONE in Pittsburgh would call Squirrel Hill a "suburb".

Zoning has been around for a long time.

Zoning in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
During the 1860s, a specific state statute prohibited all commercial activities along Eastern Parkway (Brooklyn), setting a trend for future decades.[citation needed] In 1916, New York City adopted the first zoning regulations to apply city-wide as a reaction to construction of The Equitable Building (which still stands at 120 Broadway).

http://www.michbar.org/publicpolicy/...toryzoning.pdf
Before Zoning: Building Regulations
Early building regulations in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries, regulating the physical
characteristics of buildings were upheld by the courts, and by 1926, the Supreme Court could
say:


http://landuselaw.wustl.edu/powerpoi...11-01-2006.pdf
Early Land Use Controls
• 1885—San Francisco bans public
laundries in most areas—aimed at
Chinese
• 1886—U.S. Supreme Court invalidates
S.F. ordinance in Yick Wo v. Hopkins,
118 U.S. 356
 
Old 01-19-2013, 10:18 PM
 
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Sorry, Katiana, your use of "streetcar suburbs" is non-standard. In the book that invented the term, Sam Bass Warner's Streetcar Suburbs, he examined streetcar-based development in three neighborhoods which were part of the city of Boston--Roxbury, Dorchester, and West Roxbury.
 
Old 01-19-2013, 10:50 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 17 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,992 posts, read 102,568,112 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlite View Post
Sorry, Katiana, your use of "streetcar suburbs" is non-standard. In the book that invented the term, Sam Bass Warner's Streetcar Suburbs, he examined streetcar-based development in three neighborhoods which were part of the city of Boston--Roxbury, Dorchester, and West Roxbury.
"The Word of the Lord", eh? I cannot find any corroboration that Mr. Warner invented this term.

Roxbury was at one time a separate city, as was Dorchester. Both were in existence before the streetcar. West Roxbury is sometimes referred to as a suburb within the city. He wrote that book in 1962; the University of Pittsburgh was called a "streetcar college" long before that, so perhaps putting the word "streetcar" before something was not so novel in 1962.

Roxbury, Boston - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dorchester, Boston - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
West Roxbury - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.utimes.pitt.edu/?p=3256

Here's an article about a "streetcar college" in Chicago:
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...student-groups

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 01-19-2013 at 11:13 PM..
 
Old 01-19-2013, 10:56 PM
 
1,015 posts, read 1,541,752 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
"The Word of the Lord", eh?

Roxbury was at one time a separate city, as was Dorchester. Both were in existence before the streetcar. West Roxbury is sometimes referred to as a suburb within the city.

Roxbury, Boston - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dorchester, Boston - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
West Roxbury - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yes, they were separate cities at one time. During the period Warner was writing about, they had been annexed to the city of Boston. Quibbling about this really doesn't help your argument, there are numerous other examples of streetcar suburbs in the central city, like the Sunset District of San Francisco.
 
Old 01-19-2013, 10:57 PM
 
2,642 posts, read 4,820,571 times
Reputation: 3458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
And? Did anyone ever say otherwise?

"Streetcar suburbs" have become a mantra here, a sort of legitimate excuse for living in a suburb.
Who needs an excuse for living in a suburb?? I strongly prefer living in suburbs because of more yard space and better housing options. My ideal place to live is the exurbs of a medium size city,where civilization meets farmland. In such a place one can easily reach the city center in 20 or 30 minutes and still be in a spacious environment in a modern new house. An example of such a place would be a lake home in Muskego,Wisconsin or White Bear Lake,Minnesota. Exurbs of very big cities are not as desirable though due to the huge traffic congestion(in places like the SF Bay area,Atlanta or Chicago).
 
Old 01-19-2013, 11:57 PM
 
3,836 posts, read 4,714,506 times
Reputation: 2538
Quote:
Originally Posted by capoeira View Post
Who needs an excuse for living in a suburb?? I strongly prefer living in suburbs because of more yard space and better housing options. My ideal place to live is the exurbs of a medium size city,where civilization meets farmland. In such a place one can easily reach the city center in 20 or 30 minutes and still be in a spacious environment in a modern new house. An example of such a place would be a lake home in Muskego,Wisconsin or White Bear Lake,Minnesota. Exurbs of very big cities are not as desirable though due to the huge traffic congestion(in places like the SF Bay area,Atlanta or Chicago).
In any growing city that which you seek exists for about 10 minutes until the next development goes in right down the road on that previous plot of farm land and all of a sudden you find yourself surrounded by pod developments, strip malls and carls juniors and tacking on another 10 minutes to your already long commute.

Also, I find sprawlites almost always discount the actual time to city center. e.g. Austin is a medium sized city and you couldn't reach true country at rush hour in under an hour in most directions. Invariably - people argue that their 30 mile commute at 8am takes no longer than 15-20 minutes (tops!!! they invariably add enthusiastically - as if adding three exclamation points makes is true) - when in reality it takes me 15 minutes at rush hour in my 2-3 mile commute at rush hour and they might be able to do 15-20 minutes at 3AM in a Ferrari.

Then they say - well suburbs aren't so bad. . .look at Shaker Heights.
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