U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-26-2013, 06:55 AM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 11,116,674 times
Reputation: 3118

Advertisements

McDonnell proposes eliminating Virginia?s gas tax - Washington Post

Here's a rather odd proposal in VA.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-26-2013, 07:01 AM
 
4,023 posts, read 3,271,652 times
Reputation: 2924
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
According to this, transit users cover just 33% of costs while generally paying 0% of infrastructure costs.

Government Transportation: $5.09 Subsidy per rider, one way on average

the low recovery rate is a consequence of all the low-density suburban sprawl where a lot of bus service operates. due to the low population density in those areas, farebox recovery is not surprisingly, low. but in high-density metropolitan areas the recovery rate is obviously higher. In NYC and Chicago 55%, Philly 61%, DC 62%, Toronto 80% and so on.

in lower density sprawl regions such as Atlanta, farebox recovery is only 32%. in Los Angeles about 30%, in Miami 16%.

but the suburban sprawl economy is heavily dependent on buses that largely serve low wage retail sector workers to allow them to get to work because they can't afford a car, so you just can't eliminate the bus service. think of all those fast-food chains and big box stores. if it wasn't for the low wage immigrant labor working in all those fast food places and Walmarts the suburbs as we know it wouldn't exist.

Farebox recovery ratio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

besides the roads and highways, don't forget that the gasoline you put in your car is also heavily subsidized by state and federal govts. the true cost of gasoline at the pump would be more like $10 per gallon if you took away the oil (and automotive) industry's generous subsidies and tax breaks.

Last edited by cisco kid; 01-26-2013 at 07:11 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-26-2013, 08:32 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 29 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,041 posts, read 102,742,261 times
Reputation: 33089
Quote:
Originally Posted by cisco kid View Post
the low recovery rate is a consequence of all the low-density suburban sprawl where a lot of bus service operates. due to the low population density in those areas, farebox recovery is not surprisingly, low. but in high-density metropolitan areas the recovery rate is obviously higher. In NYC and Chicago 55%, Philly 61%, DC 62%, Toronto 80% and so on.

in lower density sprawl regions such as Atlanta, farebox recovery is only 32%. in Los Angeles about 30%, in Miami 16%.

but the suburban sprawl economy is heavily dependent on buses that largely serve low wage retail sector workers to allow them to get to work because they can't afford a car, so you just can't eliminate the bus service. think of all those fast-food chains and big box stores. if it wasn't for the low wage immigrant labor working in all those fast food places and Walmarts the suburbs as we know it wouldn't exist.

Farebox recovery ratio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

besides the roads and highways, don't forget that the gasoline you put in your car is also heavily subsidized by state and federal govts. the true cost of gasoline at the pump would be more like $10 per gallon if you took away the oil (and automotive) industry's generous subsidies and tax breaks.
And we all know buses run on air!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-26-2013, 11:00 AM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 11,116,674 times
Reputation: 3118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
And we all know buses run on air!
Your point is made, but 40 people in one vehicle can be driven for far less fuel per person than one person in a honda civic. To equate the consumption of bus vs. single occupant cars is like saying, "hey tankless water heaters use energy too so they're the same as a 5000 gallon model!"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-26-2013, 11:28 AM
 
3,836 posts, read 4,721,233 times
Reputation: 2538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Similarly, we've seen gas prices rise from $1-2/gallon to $3-4/gallon. There's been no mass-exodus to buses and development of urban neighborhoods in Sacramento hasn't exploded. A slight shift, yes. People are driving less and driving more fuel-efficient vehicles, which has the unintended consequence of lower gas tax revenues.
I think people will start to reach a pain threshold at about $5/ga. North of that you will increasingly see people question all options with regards transportation. Some will opt for smaller vehicles. Some will opt for hybrids/electric. Others will take transit at least some times. Others will re-calculate their desire for living in the burbs vs. living centrally.

But no doubt when the days of cheap oil end that radical changes will come to the suburbs.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-26-2013, 11:47 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,992 posts, read 42,070,148 times
Reputation: 14811
Quote:
Originally Posted by HandsUpThumbsDown View Post
Your point is made, but 40 people in one vehicle can be driven for far less fuel per person than one person in a honda civic. To equate the consumption of bus vs. single occupant cars is like saying, "hey tankless water heaters use energy too so they're the same as a 5000 gallon model!"
If the bus has 40 people. According to some of the figures people quoted, a bus running at lower capacities (say, 10 / bus a peak direction where buses run nearly empty in one direction will lower the average even in a well used system) the efficiency savings are minor if anything. But this link quotes higher number energy efficiencies:

Myth: Public transport doesn't really save energy
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-26-2013, 12:10 PM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 11,116,674 times
Reputation: 3118
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
If the bus has 40 people. According to some of the figures people quoted, a bus running at lower capacities (say, 10 / bus a peak direction where buses run nearly empty in one direction will lower the average even in a well used system) the efficiency savings are minor if anything. But this link quotes higher number energy efficiencies:

Myth: Public transport doesn't really save energy
A system would have to have a lot of sparsely-used routes to be that inefficient. Additionally, lots of agencies route those commuter peak hour buses to other routes once they reach the CBD so they don't deadhead back after the run is complete.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-26-2013, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,091 posts, read 16,121,723 times
Reputation: 12683
Quote:
Originally Posted by HandsUpThumbsDown View Post
Your point is made, but 40 people in one vehicle can be driven for far less fuel per person than one person in a honda civic. To equate the consumption of bus vs. single occupant cars is like saying, "hey tankless water heaters use energy too so they're the same as a 5000 gallon model!"
Buses don't have 40 people, however. They have 8-9. That's what the average bus carries, just as cars carry about 1.5. While it's great to make stupid claims about buses carrying 40 people while cars are limited to one, it's just more hilarious gesticulations from transit zealots. Buses the real world, as opposed to Streetblog/Grist fantasy land, actually use more gasoline per passenger than the average car, let alone than a fuel efficient one like a Honda Civic.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-26-2013, 02:36 PM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 11,116,674 times
Reputation: 3118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Buses don't have 40 people, however. They have 8-9. That's what the average bus carries, just as cars carry about 1.5. While it's great to make stupid claims about buses carrying 40 people while cars are limited to one, it's just more hilarious gesticulations from transit zealots. Buses the real world, as opposed to Streetblog/Grist fantasy land, actually use more gasoline per passenger than the average car, let alone than a fuel efficient one like a Honda Civic.
What happened, did a bus cut you off today or something? Your comment is remarkably rude. It adds nothing to your point, which is valid.

From your comments I think buses are operated extremely inefficiently in your area.

Energy efficiency in transportation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A diesel bus commuter service in Santa Barbara, California, USA, found average diesel bus efficiency of 6.0 mpg-US (39 L/100 km; 7.2 mpg-imp) (using MCI 102DL3 buses). With all 55 seats filled this equates to 330 passenger-mpg, with 70% filled the efficiency would be 231 passenger-mpg.[56] At the typical average passenger load of 9 people, the efficiency is only 54 passenger-mpg and could be half of this figure when many stops are made in urban routes.

So let's say for discussion's sake, as a bottom figure (representing a rather inefficient route) 27 passenger-mpg. Honda Civic city MPG is 28. So while a single-occupant car is not vastly less efficient than an under-utilized bus, it is not hilarious fantasy land.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-26-2013, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,091 posts, read 16,121,723 times
Reputation: 12683
Quote:
Originally Posted by Komeht View Post
I think people will start to reach a pain threshold at about $5/ga. North of that you will increasingly see people question all options with regards transportation. Some will opt for smaller vehicles. Some will opt for hybrids/electric. Others will take transit at least some times. Others will re-calculate their desire for living in the burbs vs. living centrally.

But no doubt when the days of cheap oil end that radical changes will come to the suburbs.
You saw people do that at $4 gas, it just wasn't this radical change some expected. To me it's absurd that there's some level where I suddenly adjust my behavior whereas at a cent or five cents or even a dollar less I just go along blithely. Gas going from $4-5 gallon... well again, more of the same. Instead of buying a $35,000 Explorer (old SUV-style) that gets 16 mpg you buy a $35,000 Explorer (new Crossover) that gets about 21 mpg. Old v8 4x4 driven 15,000 a year @4/gallon = $3,750 in gas. New crossover that gets 21 mpg driven 15,000 a year @5/gallon = $3,572. Cool. Gas just went up a dollar a gallon and with no other change than switching to Crossover look-a-like SUV you've saved money from when it was $4 gallon. No need for drastic measures such as switching to hybrids, changing neighborhoods, or riding buses to more than off-set gas going from $4 to $5 a gallon.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top