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Old 01-28-2013, 05:59 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,250 posts, read 26,220,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlite View Post
That's not my definition of freedom.
This is my definition of freedom.


BMW M3 Vs Lexus ISF Part 2 - YouTube
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:11 PM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,983 posts, read 41,929,314 times
Reputation: 14804
My definition of freedom is the second video from this link:

Tim Pawlenty and the Rhetoric of Freedom | ThinkProgress

Not the first one!
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Pasadena, CA
10,087 posts, read 13,103,705 times
Reputation: 3979
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Depends on where the person is registered.



Same issue. The moron in the registry was wrong and now you have to go to the next closest location, which according to Google Maps is on 3rd Street near Beverly Hills. Now you have a minimum 39 minute transit trip whereas a car trip would take only 13 minutes. And that's assuming the bus is there the instant you walk out of the store. That wait can be as long as 30 minutes according to the 210 bus schedule posted here.

Assuming the worst case scenario (as you always should), the bus might take up to half an hour to arrive. So a trip to the next closest BBB could potentially take over an hour. A more realistic wait is 10-15 minutes (might actually be a lucky wait on a Saturday), but that's still basically an hour to make a trip that would have taken 15 minutes tops if you had a car.
... I would just order their present online. Or give them cash.

But yeah, your point is valid. I would rather be in my usual situation of having a car but not really needing it vs. the alternative of don't have a car but need it.
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,057 posts, read 16,066,811 times
Reputation: 12635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlite View Post
Individual rationality within a car dependent place will probably lead you to a car.

On the level of the society, creating places where cars are the only viable means of transportation is a massive restriction versus the other options, which happen to be less resource consuming, less polluting, typically physically better for you (since they involve exercise) and have a lower cost per passenger trip. On an even broader level, it means the society has to constantly generate new sources of oil, an ever more difficult and polluting task (see tar sands). It certainly seems to drive at least some of US foreign policy. That's not my definition of freedom.
Or to move to a non car-dependent place.

Choice is choice. Just because most people choose A doesn't mean B isn't an option for those so inclined. Cars are generally less expensive than mass transit anyway. For my transit agency, the actual cost per boarding is over $4. That's kind of a lot. IRS rates per mile, which are easy to beat with an older vehicle, are 55 cents a mile. Most trips on transit aren't 8 miles (that'd take one clear across town). Add in the time lost taking transit, limited availability, and transit gets even worse. Finally, IRS data attempts to also capture a portion of the fixed costs which is faulty analysis as only marginal costs should be considered in deciding to take a trip by car or transit.

Other than you coming to the wrong conclusion, though your points are valid. Cars are more energy efficient than transit, cars are less expensive per trip than transit, cars are far more time efficient thus leaving more time to exercise since you spend 15 minutes in the car instead of 30 or 45 sitting in a bus, cars are the better solution for reducing dependence on foreign oil. Clear winner is the car. At least where I live, might be different where you live.

Speaking of choice, another interesting one is how people chose to spend the 15-30 minutes less per trip they spent sitting in a seat by taking the car plus maybe another 5? 10? minutes of walking to and from transit stops. They can choose to spend it on City-Data or watching TV stuffing their face with Cheetos. That's another choice. Just because some people choose to spend the extra half hour on the couch shoveling Cheetos doesn't mean you have to.

Last edited by Malloric; 01-28-2013 at 06:24 PM..
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:16 PM
 
Location: Lakewood OH
21,699 posts, read 23,651,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cisco kid View Post
In North America, the car is a restriction.

Freedom means choice but in North America you don't have much of a choice. The average person here cannot function or survive without a car. You need to have a car, period.
Well, you say the average person here cannot function without a car but then you say you need to have a car, period. So that's two different summations. I function just fine without owning a car. I have made do without one and without imposing upon others who have one as I stated by mainly using public transportation, the occasional cab and rarely a ride from a friend. Oh and of course a lot of biking and walking when I was younger. Have to add that.

I have found it neither an ultimate restriction nor an ultimate freedom. It's just the way I have lived all my life. I don't speak in absolutes though, what has worked for me may not work for someone else. I would agree that most people want cars and need them.

So to answer the OP's question, it all depends upon how an individual chooses to live.
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Pasadena, CA
10,087 posts, read 13,103,705 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervah View Post
Well, you say the average person here cannot function without a car but then you say you need to have a car, period. So that's two different summations. I function just fine without owning a car. I have made do without one and without imposing upon others who have one as I stated by mainly using public transportation, the occasional cab and rarely a ride from a friend. Oh and of course a lot of biking and walking when I was younger. Have to add that.

I have found it neither an ultimate restriction nor an ultimate freedom. It's just the way I have lived all my life. I don't speak in absolutes though, what has worked for me may not work for someone else. I would agree that most people want cars and need them.

So to answer the OP's question, it all depends upon how an individual chooses to live.
When I lived in Boston, I borrowed a car one time in the 2.5 years I lived there - entirely without a car - it was not by choice that I was carless (though I quickly embraced it). Contrary to popular belief, the part of Boston I lived in (Allston-Brighton) was not a walker's paradise, the nearest grocery store was a mile or so in each direction and really the only amenities that I would say were proximate were a corner store, laundromat, CVS and a lot of college bars. But somehow I made it work for two and a half years. Obviously there are places were a car is a requirement but I think some "urbanists" are very picky about what they are willing to walk to and through - my neighborhood was certainly not one of those ideal places.
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Old 01-29-2013, 08:33 AM
 
Location: Bothell, Washington
2,701 posts, read 4,667,977 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I don't think it's so much that. Where are you going to walk to living in Marietta, Georgia? Most people live in places like that, not cutesy streetcar suburbs with farmer's markets and transit options nearby. Driving is a necessity for most people.

But even in every other place that's not Manhattan, people drive because it's crazy efficient. Just running a few routine errands in Washington, DC could take the better part of your day while the same tasks could be accomplished by car within an hour. And we're talking about what is probably the second best transit city in America! I can't even imagine what it would be like to try to use the more limited transit in other cities.

Not everyone wants to burn up a whole Saturday afternoon riding buses and trains.
Excellent point! The way I see it, buses and trains may be a good option someday for most people in big cities to get to and from work if those networks are greatly expanded to cover all parts of each metro area, but they will never replace cars for most people for their other everyday driving.
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:45 AM
 
2,145 posts, read 1,587,856 times
Reputation: 1057
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
My definition of freedom is the second video from this link:

Tim Pawlenty and the Rhetoric of Freedom | ThinkProgress

Not the first one!
The beer commercial? Why?
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,250 posts, read 26,220,119 times
Reputation: 11706
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchitup View Post
When I lived in Boston, I borrowed a car one time in the 2.5 years I lived there - entirely without a car - it was not by choice that I was carless (though I quickly embraced it). Contrary to popular belief, the part of Boston I lived in (Allston-Brighton) was not a walker's paradise, the nearest grocery store was a mile or so in each direction and really the only amenities that I would say were proximate were a corner store, laundromat, CVS and a lot of college bars. But somehow I made it work for two and a half years. Obviously there are places were a car is a requirement but I think some "urbanists" are very picky about what they are willing to walk to and through - my neighborhood was certainly not one of those ideal places.
Why didn't you just move closer to a grocery store? If you're willing to "set yourself up correctly" in Los Angeles, then why not do the same in Allston? From a walkability perspective, it doesn't really seem any worse than Hollywood, and may in fact be better than Hollywood from a streetscape/design standpoint. If your chief complaint is that it lacked the amenities of Hollywood, I mean, that's pretty much what you get in a part of Boston that's really not even considered the city. I didn't even know Allston was a part of Boston until I learned more about it in on C-D. It's isolated from the rest of the city and is really more of a quaint, working-class walkable suburb than a bustling urban neighborhood with strong appeal to young professionals and empty nesters. It's kinda like living in Canarsie.
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:18 AM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 11,096,962 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Why didn't you just move closer to a grocery store? If you're willing to "set yourself up correctly" in Los Angeles, then why not do the same in Allston? From a walkability perspective, it doesn't really seem any worse than Hollywood, and may in fact be better than Hollywood from a streetscape/design standpoint. If your chief complaint is that it lacked the amenities of Hollywood, I mean, that's pretty much what you get in a part of Boston that's really not even considered the city. I didn't even know Allston was a part of Boston until I learned more about it in on C-D. It's isolated from the rest of the city and is really more of a quaint, working-class walkable suburb than a bustling urban neighborhood with strong appeal to young professionals and empty nesters. It's kinda like living in Canarsie.
Allston is cheaper than lots of other places in Boston I think, or it was. I didn't know there was no grocery there but in my stays there I didn't have trouble without a car. Plenty of amenities to walk to.
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