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Old 01-27-2013, 10:45 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlite View Post
You can live a car dependent lifestyle in a non-car dependent neighborhood, although both car ownership rates and vehicle miles traveled are lower in those neighborhoods.

What you can't do is a live non-car dependent lifestyle in a car dependent neighborhood. Your options have been foreclosed by the way much of the United States was developed in the 20th Century.
How many people really live in totally car-dependent neighborhoods? The bus here doesn't go everywhere, but we do have Call and Ride service throughout the city (Louisville) that can get you where you need to go. You do have to plan ahead, but that's no different than other forms of PT. If for some reason I could not drive but could still do my job (probably a stretch since the attributes one needs to drive are also those that one needs to nurse, e.g. vision, mobility, etc) I could take the Call and Ride. It is possible to arrange to have it every day w/o having to call each day. Now my older daughter does live in a totally car-dependent neighborhood, as her town pulled out of the RTD.
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Old 01-27-2013, 10:50 AM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
How many people really live in totally car-dependent neighborhoods? The bus here doesn't go everywhere, but we do have Call and Ride service throughout the city (Louisville) that can get you where you need to go.
Many call and ride services are for disabled and elderly only. It's an extremely expensive service to provide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
You do have to plan ahead, but that's no different than other forms of PT.
I could walk to the corner now and know that I'm under 10 minutes away from getting on a bus. That requires next to no planning. Calling 24 hours in advance is quite different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
If for some reason I could not drive but could still do my job (probably a stretch since the attributes one needs to drive are also those that one needs to nurse, e.g. vision, mobility, etc) I could take the Call and Ride.
I'm glad you have that service. It's not ubiquitous.

I should add: Do you know anyone in Louisville who is car free?
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Old 01-27-2013, 10:54 AM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Many if not most metros limit call and ride to those with disabilities. I couldn't use it if I wanted. Most suburbs have a bus system but they may not be useful to get to most destinations or just extremely slow and inefficient.

The town I grew up in I would call totally car dependent, though there was the option (that few used) of bicycling or a really long walk; but a few roads were unsafe for biking and mostly pedestrian hostile.
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Old 01-27-2013, 11:01 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HandsUpThumbsDown View Post
Many call and ride services are for disabled and elderly only. It's an extremely expensive service to provide.



I could walk to the corner now and know that I'm under 10 minutes away from getting on a bus. That requires next to no planning. Calling 24 hours in advance is quite different.



I'm glad you have that service. It's not ubiquitous.

I should add: Do you know anyone in Louisville who is car free?
Well, Call and Ride here is for everyone. I don't totally understand the funding of it; the cities/towns must have to pitch in, b/c they are for one jurisdiction only. Ours does have a combined area with Superior, to get people to the Park and Ride. ("Ride" is ubiquitous with the RTD, as it is called "the Ride" in total.)

I could also walk to the corner and catch a bus. I don't know the schedule, but it seems fairly frequent. I often see people waiting for it. It just doesn't go everywhere. They discontinued the bus to my work, due to lack of ridership, but I do frequently see the Park and Ride there.

I don't personally know anyone in Louisville w/o a car. There are families that just have one car, rather than the more common 2-3. There are a number of elderly in old Louisville, many of whom probably don't have cars.

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Old 01-27-2013, 12:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Komeht View Post
People who live in non-car dependent neighborhoods still have the option to go elsewhere when they desire - its just they can meet most of life's necessities with a quick walk.
Well, no. That would be a walkable neighborhood. A neighborhood which is walkable is non-car-dependent, but not all non-car-dependent neighborhoods are walkable; you might be effectively transit dependent.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
How many people really live in totally car-dependent neighborhoods? The bus here doesn't go everywhere, but we do have Call and Ride service throughout the city (Louisville) that can get you where you need to go. You do have to plan ahead, but that's no different than other forms of PT. If for some reason I could not drive but could still do my job (probably a stretch since the attributes one needs to drive are also those that one needs to nurse, e.g. vision, mobility, etc) I could take the Call and Ride. It is possible to arrange to have it every day w/o having to call each day. Now my older daughter does live in a totally car-dependent neighborhood, as her town pulled out of the RTD.
Call and ride here is if you or your destination are not within something like 2 miles of a bus stop or you are registered as disabled. So if you have to ride an hour long circuitous neighborhood route to wait 30 minutes to transfer to another hour long circuitous route and then walk a mile and a half you're out of luck. I wouldn't say my neighborhood is completely car dependent. The bus stop is about 1.25 miles away and anything I need on a day-to-day basis is available within an about 1.5 mile radius. Two grocery stores, pretty decent selection of restaurants and fast food places. The library, movie theaters, malls, community college, etc are all accessible by bus. It'd be far more convenient to drive, but you could definitely get there.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nybbler View Post
Well, no. That would be a walkable neighborhood. A neighborhood which is walkable is non-car-dependent, but not all non-car-dependent neighborhoods are walkable; you might be effectively transit dependent.
Good transit service without walkability is rare, but it does happen. The main situation that I've seen is around a suburban rail station that's got nothing around it. One oddball case is Wilshire Blvd. between Beverly Hills and Westwood in western LA, known as "Condo Canyon." It's a mile plus of highrise buildings with no stores along the street, and fast rushing traffic to make walking unpleasant. But there is frequent bus service.

To Katiana's point, setting paratransit aside (call and ride), it is actually more accurate to describe places as having a range of transit-accessibility rather than a binary car-dependent/not car dependent.

There are some places in American metropolitan areas that have absolutely no transit service within a reasonable walking distance, but that's relatively rare. A lot of places have minimal transit service, a lot of suburban locations have peak hour Monday-Friday service only. Some places have service from, say, 6 am to 7 pm, but nothing in the evening. Or there could be longer service hours, but a bus that only comes once an hour, which is really very hard to use. A number of transit agencies--LA, Portland, Seattle, Minneapolis--distinguish their frequent service, which runs every 15 minutes or more frequently, at least during the week.

People have tried to create indexes of transit accessibility to take account of these factors. Walkscore has one for some cities. I don't really like their transit index, it automatically gives a large premium to rail service over bus. Often rail service is better, but not always.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:52 PM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlite View Post
Good transit service without walkability is rare, but it does happen. The main situation that I've seen is around a suburban rail station that's got nothing around it. One oddball case is Wilshire Blvd. between Beverly Hills and Westwood in western LA, known as "Condo Canyon." It's a mile plus of highrise buildings with no stores along the street, and fast rushing traffic to make walking unpleasant. But there is frequent bus service.
Generally any place that's transit dependent must be pedestrian friendly, as pedestrians are walking to/from transit stop. And transit is usually in a place that's dense enough to have some store nearby (buses normally focus on commercial streets). Many places that are unwalkable might have poor transit service. The only exception is some college areas, which run buses from rural areas or isolated apartment complexes to the center of the collegetown and university.

Quote:
There are some places in American metropolitan areas that have absolutely no transit service within a reasonable walking distance, but that's relatively rare.
It's rather common in neighborhoods of outer suburbs of eastern cities. But it varies. Plenty of east-coast suburbs do have bus service, though the usefulness might be limited.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Generally any place that's transit dependent must be pedestrian friendly, as pedestrians are walking to/from transit stop. And transit is usually in a place that's dense enough to have some store nearby (buses normally focus on commercial streets).
The likeliest place for transit without walkability is at a rail station that's planned primarily as park and ride, where most passengers are accessing it by driving. Otherwise, I agree with what you said.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:58 PM
 
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I would consider a neighborhood where one was dependent on a call-and-ride type service to be car-dependent. Those are really like subsidized shared taxis.

In general, though, I agree about the range of options. There are plenty of neighborhoods where one could function at some level without a car -- where you can perhaps take a bus to work at your office downtown, or can walk to a coffee shop and some stores -- but where it would be impractical and limiting and would involve major sacrifices to live entirely car-free. My guess is that there are more of these types of neighborhods in most American metro areas than there are neighborhoods where either it's totally impossible to get around anywhere without a car, or conversely, those neighborhoods where it's easy to live without a car.
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