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Old 03-09-2019, 08:47 PM
 
Location: Get off my lawn?
613 posts, read 219,066 times
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To MarketStEl’s point that supermarkets are a must have in mixed use dense urban developments, I humbly submit Raleigh’s ability to finally put on its big boy pants and get a true downtown full service grocery store in its Phase I Peace at West (aka “”Smokey Hollow”) development. Raleigh’s CBD has grown more dense and increased its residential footprint enormously over the past decade, but truly needed a major grocer in proximity to shatter its residential development ceiling. This development has a new Publix at ground floor retail (~55k?), with 400+ apartments above. Future stages include an area much like Philly’s Piazza at Northern Liberties, and a 40+ floor commercial tower.

The next closest groceries were all single facility with large parking lots, but even there they started to surround themselves with new 5-7 story apartment blocks, adjacent to increasingly high value single family residential. https://goo.gl/maps/JBGrve5ubZU2
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Urbanity test: Grocery stores with apartments above?  How would you rank the top five cities with them?-1fd56b1f-2631-4a99-ba49-aaa43ad20c77.jpeg  
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Old 03-10-2019, 03:07 PM
 
9,839 posts, read 11,439,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
OMG this thread was hilarious


the answer is no, its not an effective test in any singular form for testing for urbanity though this type has increased in commonality since then 80K is huge for city sites though


So a question for the OP, there was a recent apartment development (includes a city target under it) but also has a Sprouts that was part of the complex but leveraged a historic rail shed for the supermarket with no apartments on top, would that not qualify


this premis was hilarious and self serving on nearly all accounts


Yes DC has a lot of this because of the types of things being built - most other cities have smaller lots so I guess they are not urban. A 400 ft tall building with a 20k target is now not urban, what a joke
....
And who said that? The point of the thread was to compare grocery stores with surface parking lots like you find in the suburbs to intensely built mixed use development. Many cities started building suburban format grocery stores in cities when the automobile became popular in the 1950s. They thought suburban development was the future even in cities where parking was plentiful. Cities are now building these mixed use buildings with grocery stores on the first floor all over the country in 2019 which I predicted they would be way back in 2013. Maybe it was new to most of you, but now it’s common everywhere.

Welcome to 2019 kidphilly! I’ll make sure to let you know what other trends are coming down the line over the next ten years.
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Old 03-10-2019, 05:12 PM
 
Location: In the heights
22,142 posts, read 23,668,851 times
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Single supermarket or a variety of small grocers don't really matter as long as it fulfills the goal of being able to have the basic goods within walking distance.

I remember there was some report by some urban institute that Jackson Heights in Queens was a "food desert" because of its relative lack of supermarkets. It was completely ludicrous, because Jackson Heights has a massive variety of small grocers and shops carrying a massive range of goods including fresh fruits and vegetables running a gamut possibly not equalled in any neighborhood in the city and possibly the world.
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Old 03-10-2019, 05:42 PM
 
Location: The City
22,331 posts, read 32,166,272 times
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Originally Posted by MDAllstar View Post
The market drives what is feasible and what is not in a city or region. Can a realistic urbanity test be taken based on the market for major grocery stores with apartments above them versus the suburban format? Cities where grocery stores are common on the first floor of apartment buildings is one of the most valid arguments for urbanity. This is especially true when considering the structurally built environment building density (closeness of buildings) in a city.

How would you rank the top five cites with them? Please only use major grocery stores versus small neighborhood markets. Thoughts?


who, you




the answer is no or false it is not any good form of a singular way to gauge urbanity in any singular fashion especially given the further restraints you places on sq footage and no parking even if elevated or submerged so no I completely disagree that it is one of one of the most valid ways to gauge urbanity. It is aa way in a sense to gauge new development but limiting to the footprints is just absurd given many older cities don't have the foot plates nor would grocery stores be any singular retail type to evaluate


this seems to have been a chance to tout the number of such places in DC as opposed to any way to gauge urbanity


thanks for the prediction, wow you must be a genius as none of this existed nor did people want more street level retail etc and activity, thank you MD I don't think I could have realized this without your genius peminitions


now what are we going to do as retail is dying, maybe another question is what other types of things can fill spaces as retail start to be challenged
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Old 03-10-2019, 06:11 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
4,963 posts, read 2,415,287 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post

now what are we going to do as retail is dying, maybe another question is what other types of things can fill spaces as retail start to be challenged
Retail may be dying, though I suspect that (as with Mark Twain) reports of its death are greatly exaggerated, but supermarkets are a different category of retail, and as of now, e-commerce still hasn't captured the share of the overall market for groceries that it has for general or even specialty retail overall.

And that's even with the rise of those all-you-need-to-do-is-cook-it dinner-in-a-box outfits.

I know that there are a lot of people who have switched because of the convenience, but I would like to submit that there are still far more who would rather examine what they're buying in person, especially with produce, before they buy it. I know that foodies tend to complain about stores that sell produce in pre-wrapped packages (though there are some items, in particular specialty mushrooms, that are just about exclusively sold this way fresh), for instance, and the continued popularity of farmers' markets, whether weekly pop-ups like the ones on Rittenhouse Square or in Collingswood or permanent ones like the Reading Terminal Market, also IMO counterindicate the death of brick-and-mortar grocers.
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Old 03-10-2019, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
2,923 posts, read 3,636,854 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar View Post
And who said that? The point of the thread was to compare grocery stores with surface parking lots like you find in the suburbs to intensely built mixed use development. Many cities started building suburban format grocery stores in cities when the automobile became popular in the 1950s. They thought suburban development was the future even in cities where parking was plentiful. Cities are now building these mixed use buildings with grocery stores on the first floor all over the country in 2019 which I predicted they would be way back in 2013. Maybe it was new to most of you, but now it’s common everywhere.

Welcome to 2019 kidphilly! I’ll make sure to let you know what other trends are coming down the line over the next ten years.
It's definitely been a trend. Search google images for "Whole Foods apartments" and tons come up. But you may not be happy to hear that lots of less dense, sunbelt cities have been getting them too, which dampens your position that it's an urban characteristic.
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Old 03-11-2019, 06:52 AM
 
9,839 posts, read 11,439,088 times
Reputation: 2358
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
who, you




the answer is no or false it is not any good form of a singular way to gauge urbanity in any singular fashion especially given the further restraints you places on sq footage and no parking even if elevated or submerged so no I completely disagree that it is one of one of the most valid ways to gauge urbanity. It is aa way in a sense to gauge new development but limiting to the footprints is just absurd given many older cities don't have the foot plates nor would grocery stores be any singular retail type to evaluate


this seems to have been a chance to tout the number of such places in DC as opposed to any way to gauge urbanity


thanks for the prediction, wow you must be a genius as none of this existed nor did people want more street level retail etc and activity, thank you MD I don't think I could have realized this without your genius peminitions


now what are we going to do as retail is dying, maybe another question is what other types of things can fill spaces as retail start to be challenged
Surface parking! Who said there could be no parking? If its under the building, it wouldn't be a surface parking lot would it? People like to shop for convenience. Stores with a limited selection is not ideal when shopping unless you're going to a smaller store to pick up a specialty item. People like to have options when they shop. I would wager people that shop in small stores don't have a choice. That's what is near them. Ask them if they would prefer a larger store across the street from them if they had a choice?

Grocery stores dying? Ok... Retail in 2019 is mainly restaurants, gyms, bars, and grocery stores. That's what the development community goes after.

Last edited by MDAllstar; 03-11-2019 at 07:05 AM..
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Old 03-11-2019, 07:08 AM
 
9,839 posts, read 11,439,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Easy View Post
It's definitely been a trend. Search google images for "Whole Foods apartments" and tons come up. But you may not be happy to hear that lots of less dense, sunbelt cities have been getting them too, which dampens your position that it's an urban characteristic.
Actually, those developments are helping those cities become more urban. The more they build, the more urban they will become. Will they ever be like the BOS-WAS corridor? No, but they will become more urban as they build more using urban design characteristics. Many of these sunbelt downtown's are getting grocery stores for the first time as thousands of luxury apartment buildings delver in their neighborhoods. Mitdtown Atlanta is a perfect example. They have finally achieved a critical mass to support a grocery store. This is in contrast to very urban cities that have 3-4 large grocery stores within walking distance to each other. The amount of large grocery stores across DC neighborhoods in 2019 are really too many to even discuss.

My point is, the market drives all of this. The more density and income, the more grocery stores a neighborhood can support.
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Old 03-11-2019, 08:21 AM
 
6,635 posts, read 4,599,497 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xz2y View Post
When I lived in Mpls and few years ago, there was a Trader Joe's in St Louis Park, and dense suburb of Mpls. There were apartments built above the Trader Joe's, but the parking lot for the store was tiny and a HUGE hassle to park in. I always parked on the street, even if it meant walking several blocks, just to avoid getting clobbered in the store parking lot. I favor density and urbanism, but a tiny lot for a grocery store is a headache for anyone who has to drive to a location (who doesn't live in the immediate neighborhood).
I live in a fairly suburban area. There’s a TJs less than a mile from me with the worst parking imaginable. In fact every TJs I’ve ever been to has lousy parking if it has parking. We always laugh that their location scouts must have “bad parking situation” as part of their selection criteria. The worse the parking, the more likely they’ll pick it! Glad I can walk to ours instead of circling the lot for 15 minutes just to buy some Cookie Butter.
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Old 03-11-2019, 08:34 AM
 
Location: The City
22,331 posts, read 32,166,272 times
Reputation: 7738
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar View Post
Surface parking! Who said there could be no parking? If its under the building, it wouldn't be a surface parking lot would it? People like to shop for convenience. Stores with a limited selection is not ideal when shopping unless you're going to a smaller store to pick up a specialty item. People like to have options when they shop. I would wager people that shop in small stores don't have a choice. That's what is near them. Ask them if they would prefer a larger store across the street from them if they had a choice?

Grocery stores dying? Ok... Retail in 2019 is mainly restaurants, gyms, bars, and grocery stores. That's what the development community goes after.


There are only so many gyms, banks, bars, dry cleaners, restaurants and grocery stores so wonder what longer term retail will look like as having street retail is always preferred (and some stores are reducing their spread)


On shopping (grocery) I have 4 full service grocery stores within a 5-10 minute walk and even more if I extend further That said I also have an open air market and many smaller specialty stores. Its pretty easy to get by without having to go to a large store but I am probably luckier than most with the breadth and variety of no full service stores close by. That said I do find myself at Acme and WF which are right next to each other 5 minutes away, though I don't think either are even close to 80K sq feet maybe they are closer to 40 but think both would fall under that
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