U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-27-2013, 06:47 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,083 posts, read 102,830,251 times
Reputation: 33147

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar View Post
When I say urban, I mean no surface parking, zero lot development meaning building comes right up to the street, streetwall formed without breaks. Refer to the link above of D.C. for an example or some of the links from Chicago, NYC, or Boston.
There is very little in Denver like that, period. I did find some link about possibly building a Target in downtown Denver, shich might be somewhat like that, but we like a few trees.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-27-2013, 06:52 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,992 posts, read 42,120,818 times
Reputation: 14811
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
There is very little in Denver like that, period. I did find some link about possibly building a Target in downtown Denver, shich might be somewhat like that, but we like a few trees.
This Denver commercial street has less trees than this "streetwall" one.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2013, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,610 posts, read 3,771,048 times
Reputation: 1616
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar View Post
When did I say I didn't have any data for othr cities. I don't know everything but I definetly studied the typical format for grocery stores in the 5 cities I named. Most either had surface parking lots or didn't have apartments or an office building on top of them.



That's fine but you can also say that in a constructive way without attacking people. This is just an academic discussion so there is never any reason to attack people over a stupid topic in a message board. I was talking about large format grocery stores because they offer all option's needed by all different people. A small format grocery store will not allow any and everyone to live in a neighborhood and shop at the grocery store for all their needs. Do you see Whole Foods building 10,000 square foot stores? I don't know what is so hard to understand about that. Funny thing is, you are probably behind the eightball because Chicago will most certainly be building more of these types of stores in the future because it's popular now. The choice to build large format urban stores is the actual store's and developer's choice by the way, maybe the major grocery store's in Chicago and Chicago dvelopers are just warming up to the idea since they most likely have been using the surface parking lot model.
Not Whole Foods, although there aren't a lot in Canada. However, the Canadian big box grocery stores have locations in downtown/inner city Toronto and they are quite small, around 5,000-10,000 sf mostly. In the suburbs, they're typically 30,000-40,000 sf, 50,000+ sf stores are pretty uncommon, even in the suburbs. Toronto's core also has a lot of "medium box" (ex Rabba Fine Foods) in that 5,000-10,000 sf range, as well as even smaller independent type grocery stores.

I think Sobeys is Canada's biggest grocery store chain, generally they have big box locations, but this one near downtown Toronto is about 5,000 sf.
Sobeys, Bloor Street West, Toronto, ON, Canada - Google Maps

A small independent store in Kensington Market, probably 4000sf or so. It probably doesn't have everything, but there are easily dozens of other stores within walking distance that complement it.
Sobeys, Bloor Street West, Toronto, ON, Canada - Google Maps

There's plenty of little 1000-5000sf specialized shops in Toronto, whether it's butchers, bakeries, fruit markets, cheese shops... and variety stores.
All in all, I would say the grocery stores in New York seem similar to those of Toronto, small and single storey. Ex:
Sobeys, Bloor Street West, Toronto, ON, Canada - Google Maps

There are a few very big ones, however, the biggest one has non-residential use above, it's Loblaws' Toronto flagship store, and it has the neighbouring university's hockey arena on top. The building used to be home to the Toronto Maple Leafs. The store is 85,000 sf, although it's still under construction in streetview:
Sobeys, Bloor Street West, Toronto, ON, Canada - Google Maps

61,000 sf Loblaws in a larger multi storey urban mall with condos on top:
Empress Walk, Yonge Street, North York, ON, Canada - Google Maps

There's a 48,000 sf Longos here, I think in the basement level:
Sobeys, Bloor Street West, Toronto, ON, Canada - Google Maps

40,000 sf Whole Foods tucket away with residential on top.
Sobeys, Bloor Street West, Toronto, ON, Canada - Google Maps

I'm still not sure why having a few big box grocery stores with apartments above is more urban than many small stores with apartments above or even big box stores with offices or other retail above.

I also wouldn't underestimate the ability of smaller 10,000 stores to offer a wide variety of items. Some of these little stores have very unique items you might not have at big box stores, my father loves cheese but was dissappointed by what the local suburban Whole Foods had to offer. A small specialty cheese shop in Montreal would definitely have a better selection, maybe even one in Toronto. Big box stores often sell pretty much the same stuff from one store to the other. I bet there are tons of things you could find in stores in Chinatown you couldn't find in a place like Whole Foods. There's a pretty big (30,000sf?) Polish supermarket where I used to live called Starskys, I bet you couldn'f find most of the stuff they sell in a regular big box store. They have about 50 different kinds of pickled mushrooms... on the other hand, I don't think they had any toilet paper, and hardly any cereal. You can go to Wal-mart for those. Where I live now, I have two stores within a mile, one has most of the basic everyday stuff, but every now and then I go to Vincenzo's which has all sorts of specialty food packed in tight little aisles in a 10,000 sf store. Most of the stuff they sell doesn't take up much space, and they'll have a small number of each type of item, so the amount of variety they have is comparable to that of a much bigger store.

I suspect this is somewhat how most big urban cities like New York, Paris or Berlin function. You'll have a mid-sized (~10,000 sf) store with the everyday basics, and then a bunch of specialty stores complementing them in each neighbourhood.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2013, 07:01 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,992 posts, read 42,120,818 times
Reputation: 14811
Here's one I visited in Vancouver:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=super...8.88,,0,-21.14

probably a bunch more
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2013, 07:12 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,083 posts, read 102,830,251 times
Reputation: 33147
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
This Denver commercial street has less trees than this "streetwall" one.
I got the same picture of Brooklyn both times. Try looking at this thread:

Baker area -- Photo Tour
(Some pictures of commercial areas)

Downtown Denver --about 50 pics -- 4.13.2008
(Downtown)

Platt Park area (Old South Pearl) -- Photo Tour
(Similar to the Brooklyn neighborhood; finally the trees are leafed out.)

Platte Valley & Highlands -- Photo Tour
(Another neighborhood similar to the Brooklyn hood, also in summer)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2013, 07:30 PM
 
Location: Pasadena, CA
10,087 posts, read 13,147,147 times
Reputation: 3985
Here are the ones I know of in LA:

Selma & Vine Trader Joe's: los angeles, ca - Google Maps
Hollywood & Western Ralph's: los angeles, ca - Google Maps
9th Street Ralph's: los angeles, ca - Google Maps
Cesar Chavez Walmart Grocery Store: los angeles, ca - Google Maps
Sunset & Vine "super Walgreens" and Bed, Bath & Beyond: los angeles, ca - Google Maps
Jefferson & Figueroa Fresh & Easy: fresh and easy, los angeles, ca - Google Maps
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2013, 07:37 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
2,932 posts, read 3,650,604 times
Reputation: 2144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
They're urban, as in the city.

Target Store Locations in Denver, CO

https://www.google.com/search?q=home...w=1680&bih=904
(Some of these are not in Denver, e.g. the ones that don't have Denver addresses)
They're called "City Target". The first was in Chicago and the 2nd was in LA. LA has two of them so far.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2013, 07:40 PM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 11,124,503 times
Reputation: 3118
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Easy View Post
They're called "City Target". The first was in Chicago and the 2nd was in LA. LA has two of them so far.
I was impressed by the city target in Chicago. Looks like it took over an old department store. Still maintained a bit of the former higher-class retailer's ambiance.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2013, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
2,932 posts, read 3,650,604 times
Reputation: 2144
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchitup View Post
Seems like it is a test of which cities are building more TOD as of late, since it seems like most of the stores under residences are newer buildings.
And of course DC leads the country in TOD.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2013, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
2,932 posts, read 3,650,604 times
Reputation: 2144
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchitup View Post
Here are the ones I know of in LA:

Selma & Vine Trader Joe's: los angeles, ca - Google Maps
Hollywood & Western Ralph's: los angeles, ca - Google Maps
9th Street Ralph's: los angeles, ca - Google Maps
Cesar Chavez Walmart Grocery Store: los angeles, ca - Google Maps
Sunset & Vine "super Walgreens" and Bed, Bath & Beyond: los angeles, ca - Google Maps
Jefferson & Figueroa Fresh & Easy: fresh and easy, los angeles, ca - Google Maps
That sounds about right. It's a recent, but prevailing trend. I think that Blvd 6200 and Fountain/La Brea ("Jon's Killer") that are under construction will both have grocery stores. Probably others as well.

What I wonder is how much parking will cost. Right now they validate, but given the narrow profit margins of most grocery stores, that will likely change.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top