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Old 01-28-2013, 09:12 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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^^In fairness, St. Louis and even OKC are urban. But I agree, ground floor groceries is hardly an "urbanity" test if there is such a thing as "urbanity". Is the opposite of "urbanity" "rurality"?
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DynamoLA View Post
Lol.

Thanks for telling us what the means test is for "urbanity".

Ground floor grocery stores.

Not transit, cultural offerings, density, etc.... but.... grocery stores below apartments.

Perhaps you should put Saratoga Springs NY on your "urbanity" list:

The region’s first ‘urban-model’ grocery store - Places and Spaces - timesunion.com - Albany NY

How about St. Louis?

Central West End to get new apartments and a Whole Foods grocery : Stltoday

Maybe Oklahoma City...

Native Roots grocery prepares to open in Oklahoma City's Deep Deuce area | NewsOK.com
I think you seem to be missing the point here. We aren't talking about one or two outlier new urban format grocery stores. We are talking about the norm across a city. The question is about the market potential of grocery stores that are built under highrises etc. I talked about market potential in the first post. Developers won't build this type of mixed use if its not financially feasible or profitable. I guess a better question would be how many surface parking lot grocery stores does your city have versus urban highrise mixed use ones?
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by oakparkdude View Post
I'm not sure how large a 40k sq foot store is, but if its Trader Joe's size, then yeah, I think Chicago has at least 10, if not a few more.

Just by memory:
2 Trader Joes
2 Whole Foods
3 Dominicks (Safeway)
1 Jewel-Osco (Supervalu)
1 City Target
1 Neighborhood Walmart
1 Marianos
1 Treasure Island
1 Aldis
I think Potash Brothers would count too.

Trader Joe's is a popular chain and that is why I included it but its not that large typically. If you want to gain a frame of reference, think about suburban grocery stores. They are usually around 40,000-80,000 sq. feet.
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:31 AM
 
Location: Oak Park, IL
5,522 posts, read 12,306,817 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar View Post
Trader Joe's is a popular chain and that is why I included it but its not that large typically. If you want to gain a frame of reference, think about suburban grocery stores. They are usually around 40,000-80,000 sq. feet.
Even some of the free-standing single story grocery stores with parking lots in Chicago are relatively small. So I guess if 40k is the cut-off and TJ doesn't count, Chicago is just a rural backwater.
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:08 AM
 
Location: Maryland
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Originally Posted by oakparkdude View Post
Even some of the free-standing single story grocery stores with parking lots in Chicago are relatively small. So I guess if 40k is the cut-off and TJ doesn't count, Chicago is just a rural backwater.
I wonder if Target stores would also count? There's the Target on Clark that is intertwined with a bunch of apartments, and then there's the city Target on State st. I believe there are several Aldi stores in the city that fit this format, too. I can think of at least the one in Lincoln Park and there's one on Granville.
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:19 AM
 
Location: Oak Park, IL
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Originally Posted by Maintainschaos View Post
I wonder if Target stores would also count? There's the Target on Clark that is intertwined with a bunch of apartments, and then there's the city Target on State st. I believe there are several Aldi stores in the city that fit this format, too. I can think of at least the one in Lincoln Park and there's one on Granville.
But Aldis are smaller format stores too, so they would fail the "Urbanity test" too. Come to think of it, I doubt there are many 40k+ sf grocery stores in Manhattan either, so it probably isn't very urban either.
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by oakparkdude View Post
Even some of the free-standing single story grocery stores with parking lots in Chicago are relatively small. So I guess if 40k is the cut-off and TJ doesn't count, Chicago is just a rural backwater.

There are many small format stores in most cities that are in the bottom of buildings. Like we talked early on in this thread, I think this is more about new buildings because developers would have to plan for these grocery stores to be included. See some of the links earlier in the thread for examples. I am sure as Chicago redevelops area's of the city, this format will be very prevalent in affluent area's. They are being built nationwide where the market and ROI can support building them.
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:30 AM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,992 posts, read 42,120,818 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oakparkdude View Post
Even some of the free-standing single story grocery stores with parking lots in Chicago are relatively small. So I guess if 40k is the cut-off and TJ doesn't count, Chicago is just a rural backwater.
Out of curiosity does Chicago have one-story supermarkets without parking like these:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=super...,,0,-4.94&z=16

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=super...5,,0,1.17&z=16

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=super...,,0,-9.69&z=17
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:39 AM
 
9,841 posts, read 11,468,473 times
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Originally Posted by oakparkdude View Post
But Aldis are smaller format stores too, so they would fail the "Urbanity test" too. Come to think of it, I doubt there are many 40k+ sf grocery stores in Manhattan either, so it probably isn't very urban either.

How many "new" grocery stores are in Manhattan? Another thing to think about is how many buildings have a footprint big enough for a grocery store that size? A couple pages back in this thread as I analyzed this more, I realized that the footprint of the building play's a huge role in the feasibility for putting full service grocery stores in urban dense areas. Skyscraper's have small footprint's so it's harder to put full service grocery stores in them without being multi-floor and taking up the entire amount of retail space which does not allow a mix of retail which is not good obviously.

I think D.C. with it's large wide building's because of the congress imposed height restriction's makes it feasible here, but maybe not in other cities that have smaller footprint's in their urban area's. This is not stopping newer building's that are specially designed to not have them though and you can see that earlier in this thread.
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:45 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar View Post
How many "new" grocery stores are in Manhattan?
That's part of the reason this isn't a very good test for urbanity.

Quote:
Another thing to think about is how many buildings have a footprint big enough for a grocery store that size? A couple pages back in this thread as I analyzed this more, I realized that the footprint of the building play's a huge role in the feasibility for putting full service grocery stores in urban dense areas. Skyscraper's have small footprint's so it's harder to put full service grocery stores in them without being multi-floor and taking up the entire amount of retail space which does not allow a mix of retail which is not good obviously.
Most buildings in Manhattan aren't skyscrapers. There are plenty of old buildings where large stores could be squeezed in:


Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
You can find big box supermarkets in old buildings of NYC:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Whole...02.17,,0,-18.7

former department store building (well now half used for a department store)

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Trade...0.02,,0,-15.43

another one.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Trade...2,225,,0,-7.48

former bank building. Trader Joe's is usually on the small side. Otherwise, NYC supermarkets tend to be what I showed earlier in the thread. Otherwise the city still favors small-scale grocery stores, even stores labelled just "fruit stores".
But space is valuable and retail rent is high, so large grocery stores aren't going to built that often.
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