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Old 02-04-2013, 11:28 AM
 
Location: plano
6,566 posts, read 8,098,810 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komeht View Post
To an Urbanite a new Condo Tower on a vacant or low-intensity lot, for example, means the possibility of more goods and services nearby, more lively streets, more of the stuff that urbanites like to do with few none of the negative externalities. More people doesn't necessarily mean more cars in a dense walkable city - it means more people on the sidewalks. If frequently means a blighted area or block is turned into something vibrant. Even when it does increase traffic, it's never that bad because a well planned grid is effective at disbursing traffic. The more people the more likely there will be to get more transit options as well.

To an Suburbanite a new subdivision just down the freeway has all the negative impacts (all traffic feeds onto the same roads). New subdivisions are almost always build on greenfields - replacing country with sprawl. A new subdivision mean mean a new grocery store or shopping center, but the chances that it would be walkable or nearby are infinitely small and anyway, each new business increases already congested roads.

Just occurs to me why the discussions on density create such diametrically opposed views. If you live in a city, density offers a ton of benefits with few downsides. If you live in sprawl, adding people creates a lot of negative effects without the positive benefits.

You can't fix sprawl by adding density - it doesn't work. By contrast, density in the center cities is desirable and increases viability by creating the critical mass that makes cities come alive.
Incredible.... way off the mark, I would say just the opposite, or at most city dwellers want different kinds of development. Sububan residents in experience look forward to new roof tops and retail services or even office development which can add amenities to their area with its newer less dense look and feel. Where on earth did this generalize come from some book or did you just make it up? It cant be based on real life experiences in my view.
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Old 02-04-2013, 11:52 AM
 
3,836 posts, read 4,714,506 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnhw2 View Post
Incredible.... way off the mark, I would say just the opposite, or at most city dwellers want different kinds of development. Sububan residents in experience look forward to new roof tops and retail services or even office development which can add amenities to their area with its newer less dense look and feel. Where on earth did this generalize come from some book or did you just make it up? It cant be based on real life experiences in my view.
Nope - they look forward to it, until traffic becomes a nightmare (it always does) and then they dread each and every new driveway (and rightly so), generally.
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Old 02-04-2013, 04:54 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland
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urbanites welcome new developments because it means the area is getting refreshed and will look brighter and not previously trampled by millions of feet.
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Old 02-04-2013, 05:07 PM
 
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There are NIMBYs in both the suburbs AND the city! I don't think there's a difference. And often different groups oppose projects for different reasons; say a city neighborhood where some neighbors don't want development X because they fear more traffic, other groups oppose it because it's a one-story building and they want something multi-use and denser, while yet another group opposes it because the design doesn't fit with the "character" of the neighborhood. Just like in a suburban development one group could oppose a new development because it has environmental implications and hurts a water shed, others oppose it because they fear more traffic, others oppose it because, say, it includes affordable apartment units and they say it will attract the "wrong" kind of people and bring down property values. These are all arguments I've heard here in the Twin Cities, and seem pretty consistent with stuff I've heard other places I've lived, too.

And, of course, even those who are most supportive of new development and growth don't necessarily like every project that comes along. That goes for both those living in the city and in the suburbs! And some developments attract a whole lot more attention -- whether positive or negative -- than others.
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Old 02-04-2013, 05:14 PM
 
10,630 posts, read 23,412,818 times
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Originally Posted by easherly View Post
urbanites welcome new developments because it means the area is getting refreshed and will look brighter and not previously trampled by millions of feet.
I'm probably what you would consider an "urbanite," but there are lousy new developments out there. Here in Minneapolis, they put a TERRIBLE development on an empty block downtown (Block E, for those of you familiar with this area); the block is an important one, full of potential, with the power to do a lot for downtown. (it was empty due to being razed as "urban blight") Nothing much happened there for more than a decade. Finally, in 2001, an incredibly horrible new development replaced the surface parking lot, and believe me, if you think there's nothing worse than a surface parking lot, then you haven't seen the new Block E. One of these years someone will finally be able to raze it and start fresh, but it should stand as a reminder that not all development is good.
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Old 02-04-2013, 06:52 PM
 
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Wow, unfounded assumptions and proof by assertion.

Anyway, I've found that the real enemies to development are environmentalists and militant urbanists who think everyone should live in a multi-family dwelling in a city, and don't want any building outside the urban boundary.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:37 PM
 
Location: Southern California
15,087 posts, read 17,561,114 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komeht View Post
Why urbanites (generally favor new development and suburbanites (generally) oppose it
Do you have any case studies to support this statement? In my observations and experience, there are a variety of reasons why people oppose or favor a project.

[and it didn't matter if they were urbanites or suburbanites]
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:44 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 17 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,995 posts, read 102,568,112 times
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Agree with those who say it's not an "urban/suburban" thing, and that people can oppose the same development for different reasons. Sometimes they get together, proving the statement "politics makes strange bedfellows".
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Old 02-05-2013, 12:25 AM
 
3,836 posts, read 4,714,506 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKEETC View Post
Do you have any case studies to support this statement? In my observations and experience, there are a variety of reasons why people oppose or favor a project.

[and it didn't matter if they were urbanites or suburbanites]
Case studies? No. Observational. Most, not all, urbanites I know LOVE new development. And why wouldn't they? It means good stuff to them.

Most, not all, suburbanites I know HATE it when a new subdivision goes in near them. It makes perfect since when you think about what it means (lots of negative impacts, no positive ones).

Where's my evidence? I don't have hard data - i can only point to anecdotal evidence. For example there are websites out there where urbanist gather to discuss and celebrate new buildings and increased density. I can't think of any forums where suburbanists come together to cheer and discuss more sprawl.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:20 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,416 posts, read 11,920,328 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komeht View Post
Case studies? No. Observational. Most, not all, urbanites I know LOVE new development. And why wouldn't they? It means good stuff to them.

Most, not all, suburbanites I know HATE it when a new subdivision goes in near them. It makes perfect since when you think about what it means (lots of negative impacts, no positive ones).

Where's my evidence? I don't have hard data - i can only point to anecdotal evidence. For example there are websites out there where urbanist gather to discuss and celebrate new buildings and increased density. I can't think of any forums where suburbanists come together to cheer and discuss more sprawl.
I'm sorry, this is ridiculous. "Urbanists" aren't the majority of people who live in cities. They aren't even always the majority of upper-middle class white people who live in cities.

I live in a working-class white neighborhood which has been gentrifying pretty rapidly. In the last few years, the development has shifted from being dominated by homeowners fixing up places and very small-scale guts and flips to developers building entirely new houses, or larger-scale commercial and residential developments.

The local population (working-class white) by and large hates the new development, mainly due to parking. When the neighborhood was still blighted and half-occupied, it was easy to find a streetside space (there are no driveways where I live, it's a rowhouse neighborhood), but every infill project adds more people, most of whom have at least one car. Recent plans which the NIMBYs have been raising a ruckus about include a local bar buying out the rest of a block and making a concert hall seating 600 on our main commercial drag, and plans to convert a nearby church into around 30 apartment units. People raise other concerns like "preserving neighborhood character," but on the whole it seems to be about parking.

It's not unique to this neighborhood too. A few neighborhoods over, there's a much rougher, black neighborhood which has been desiring a grocery store for years. One is finally slated to come in, on a commercial thoroughfare which is the boundary between this neighborhood and a gentrified, yuppie area. A few yuppies have held up the construction for going on a year however, because the food delivery trucks will go onto their street.

Even in the most ghetto neighborhood in the city, a recent plan to put in a senior housing low-rise with a post-office and some commercial space on the first floor has met with some local objections. Some in the community are against it because they say it will make more seniors abandon their homes, and increase blight. Others are upset because it has a commercial element when the traditional (blighted) commercial strip is a few blocks from there. To some degree the opposition seems drummed up by political enemies of the current city councilman (who has been pushing for the project), but it does show even in neighborhoods that nothing good has happened for decades, people can and will turn up their noses at new development.
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