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Old 02-16-2013, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,851 times
Reputation: 217

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Quote:
Originally Posted by annerk View Post
The numbers I'm seeing make some pretty ridiculous assumptions...
As I see it, she's spending less than $1500 a year on car ownership.
It is simple for me:
I CHOOSE not to own a car, and would rather put the money into paying down a mortgage.
So do not expect me to be an expert on costs I choose not to pay, especially since I live outside the US.

But I am happy to see that there has been a long and lively discussion here about what people actually pay. I think many drivers just pay up, without thinking how much they are paying.

Whatever the detailed number are, they are more than I want to pay...
And I think they will escalate in the future.

By being STUBBORN and only living where I can live carfree, I can sidestep much of the coming drama about rising Dollar Oil prices.

Truly, I do not understand why far more people do not adopt this simple, winning strategy.

 
Old 02-16-2013, 05:58 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,006 posts, read 102,606,536 times
Reputation: 33064
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geologic View Post
In Europe?
You can search the web for that as easily as I acn - I live in Hong Kong.
The Mass Transit system here is run by the MTR Corporation

Here's their profit from 2011:
xx

And their secrets are :
+ Density, especially around the transport stations
+ Using property development around the stations, to capture profits to pay
+ Running a highly efficient and on-time service (best in the world, probably)

I will ASK AGAIN... and again, and again !!!!!!!!!

That people LISTEN
TO the strong towns podcast, to hear what an expert
says about the shortcomings of the US transit model.
You're the one who brought up Europe. It's a sort of unwritten rule here on CD that the person who makes an assertion has to back it up if asked, not the other way around. Actually, you brought up Europe's oil use, which I'd also like to see documented. Maybe unsubsidized transit works in Hong Kong, one of the densest places (if not the densest) on earth, but Hong Kong is not the USA.
 
Old 02-16-2013, 06:04 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,989 posts, read 41,967,271 times
Reputation: 14805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
You're the one who brought up Europe. It's a sort of unwritten rule here on CD that the person who makes an assertion has to back it up if asked, not the other way around. Actually, you brought up Europe's oil use, which I'd also like to see documented.
Well here's total energy use measured in energy equivalent to kg of oil:

Energy use (kg of oil equivalent per capita) | Data | Table

US is about or slightly more than double.
 
Old 02-16-2013, 06:06 PM
 
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,851 times
Reputation: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
You're the one who brought up Europe. It's a sort of unwritten rule here on CD that the person who makes an assertion has to back it up if asked, not the other way around. Actually, you brought up Europe's oil use, which I'd also like to see documented. Maybe unsubsidized transit works in Hong Kong, one of the densest places (if not the densest) on earth, but Hong Kong is not the USA.
I used to live in Europe (the UK actually)

The figures I have for Europe versus the US were quoted above:

Oil use per capita:
U.S.---: 27 barrel
Europe : 9 barrels

This came from a YouTube video. Do you doubt them?
I do not claim to be an expert on all things European

The $8,000+ Per capita figure came from a Strong towns podcast.
I did some searching to find the links I provided on page one, and it has been debated thoroughly since.

I have invested way more time in this, than I have any need to - I have decided that I want to live Carfree, based on all the evidence I have
 
Old 02-16-2013, 06:10 PM
 
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,851 times
Reputation: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Well here's total energy use measured in energy equivalent to kg of oil:

Energy use (kg of oil equivalent per capita) | Data | Table

US is about or slightly more than double.
That's already too high (in relation to Rest-of-World) for my taste and satisfaction.
But the ratio for Car use and Oil use is bound to be higher, since oil is the main energy used in transportation.

BTW, another reason the US has higher energy cost, is that US homes are larger - and more expensive to heat.

Is that a good thing? I have my own opinion, but it depends on your point of view on what makes a good quality of live, and what is fair for the planet. I CHOOSE to live in a smaller space (in a crowded city) than many others do here. So you can guess my opinion.
 
Old 02-16-2013, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,851 times
Reputation: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Maybe unsubsidized transit works in Hong Kong, one of the densest places (if not the densest) on earth, but Hong Kong is not the USA.
The densest political unit in the world is Macau, which is HK's neighbor.

I am not saying everywhere needs to be like Hong Kong, but the fact that Mass Transit works here can point IN THE DIRECTION of a solution - ie higher density.

Low density light rail systems will almost certainly need a subsidy, so if you are in favor of rail, you OUGHT to also be in favor of higher density or big subsidies - but have no requirement to move to the density levels seen in HK.
 
Old 02-16-2013, 06:15 PM
 
26,590 posts, read 54,595,142 times
Reputation: 13019
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geologic View Post
It is simple for me:
I CHOOSE not to own a car, and would rather put the money into paying down a mortgage.
So do not expect me to be an expert on costs I choose not to pay, especially since I live outside the US.

But I am happy to see that there has been a long and lively discussion here about what people actually pay. I think many drivers just pay up, without thinking how much they are paying.

Whatever the detailed number are, they are more than I want to pay...
And I think they will escalate in the future.

By being STUBBORN and only living where I can live carfree, I can sidestep much of the coming drama about rising Dollar Oil prices.

Truly, I do not understand why far more people do not adopt this simple, winning strategy.
Not everyone has a mortgage, either--my mother does not and hasn't had one for 30 years.

Not everyone wants to live in an urban setting. I'm in sales and NEED to drive to get to my customers locations--most of which are not (and couldn't be due to the type of industry they are in) accessible via mass transit. If I lived in an urban setting I'd have to pay for parking, and I'd pay higher insurance.

By the way, no car loan here for any of the four cars in our household. Three were bought cash, one was bought with a zero percent loan--paid off in two years. 2000-115K miles, 2004--150K miles, 2006--12K miles, 2009--30K miles. We don't plan on replacing any of them with in the next five years, and when we do, we'll pay cash. Three of the four get between 30-50 mpg. The 2006 gets about 24 mpg. Don't try to speak for everyone, as you don't know their circumstances.
 
Old 02-16-2013, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,068 posts, read 16,081,530 times
Reputation: 12641
US has lower energy costs than most of Europe... not sure what you're talking about? It's one of the reasons we consume so much here. Energy is cheap, why not? Go to Germany or France where wholesale rates for electricity are triple what they are in the US, and you have more of a reason to use it efficiently.
 
Old 02-16-2013, 06:19 PM
 
26,590 posts, read 54,595,142 times
Reputation: 13019
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geologic View Post
That's already too high (in relation to Rest-of-World) for my taste and satisfaction.
But the ratio for Car use and Oil use is bound to be higher, since oil is the main energy used in transportation.

BTW, another reason the US has higher energy cost, is that US homes are larger - and more expensive to heat.

Is that a good thing? I have my own opinion, but it depends on your point of view on what makes a good quality of live, and what is fair for the planet. I CHOOSE to live in a smaller space (in a crowded city) than many others do here. So you can guess my opinion.
Again with the assumptions. New homes are being built with serious consideration towards sustainable building materials and energy efficiency. Not everyone lives in a cold climate. My HVAC has been OFF since October 1st. I doubt it will be back on until late April. Do you have anything based in fact to comment on?
 
Old 02-16-2013, 06:19 PM
 
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,851 times
Reputation: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by annerk View Post
Not everyone has a mortgage, either--my mother does not and hasn't had one for 30 years.

Not everyone wants to live in an urban setting. I'm in sales and NEED to drive to get to my customers locations--most of which are not (and couldn't be due to the type of industry they are in) accessible via mass transit. If I lived in an urban setting I'd have to pay for parking, and I'd pay higher insurance.
Did you choose your job, or did someone force you to take it?

My point is, you choose your overall living arrangement.
By making wise choices over the years, I am in the happy position to be self-employed.
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