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Old 02-12-2013, 08:43 PM
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,207 times
Reputation: 217


Getting the Parking Right near Train Stations

Originally Posted by GoPhils View Post
I think part of Felt's point was that you keep praising HK doing transit the right way, yet their huge demand for cars may be part of the reason for high oil prices...
I think you mean: Demand is rising in mainland China, not in Hong Kong.

Sure. And that demand is most likely to go on rising. China is climbing up the wealth curve, and has reached the stage where many more people want to own cars, and can afford them. There is nothing (apart from starting a huge war - cancel/cancel) that the US can do to stop it. So it is best to accommodate that rise in demand, and remake its own living arrangements so they are less threatened by rising dollar oil prices. The strength of this trend, and the threat to the US way of living is crystal clear when you live outside the US. What do Americans have such difficulty in grasping the fact that they are part of a global economy, and things may not go the way that US carowners want?

Originally Posted by GoPhils View Post
Yeah, if Geologic's dreams about CLT are going to come even remotely close to true...
I am not talking about Dreams... but rather what I see as an inevitable future. I have watched it happen in various cities where I have lived. And CLT seems to be at that same stage now.
Given the strong trends in place, we need to adjust, or get hit by a powerful wave that we ignored.

Originally Posted by GoPhils View Post
... it's going to happen in stages IMO. I do think real commuter rail would get a good amount of use if there were convenient park and ride lots (or garages if that makes Geologic happier) in places like Matthews/Cornelius/Concord/Fort Mill. How long it would take to justify the cost I don't know. But still I don't think one can necessarily say "not putting mixed use development is a bad move."

As you were saying, park and ride lots would encourage people to use mass transit, but in most cases they will still need a car to get there. Maybe once these stations get busier you can add retail etc. later. And Geologic also seems to want housing near transit stations to be more expensive. If that's the case, as was said, people will still choose to live further out if it means they can get more space for less money.

I mean even places like DC that do transit "the right way" (even though they have some of the worst automobile traffic in the country) have dreaded park and ride lots.
Have you heard the Strong Town's podcast on TRANSIT ?

Ian Rasmussen suggests that no parking should be within 5 minutes walk of a train station. The space nearby should be reserved for apartments (up to 5 stories high - I think higher), retail, and commercial. This way, those who commute would move into the new development, and find the commuting highly convenient. They may even be able to give up their cars. The drivers from the outside who need to park at the station would suffer the (minor?) inconvenience of walking further.

This would truly building more viable transit, and STRONGER TOWNS, they say in the podcast. I heartily concur.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:02 AM
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,207 times
Reputation: 217
Originally Posted by NDL View Post
This is a major, major, fault with Charlotte's redevelopment...
. . .
A lack of proper retail, and way too many chain restaurants, highlights my list of needed improvements to Charlotte's core.

...There's no real retail destination in Downtown CLT.
It sounds like an opportunity to me.
An experiment is needed - a mixed use development right next to transport, including high end retail, and certainly a supermarket

I know some here may be sick of seeing my comparisons, but here's how they do it in Hong Kong

The Elements shopping mall was built by SHKP, HK's top developer. It includes many high end shops, a supermarket, restaurants, and a multi-screen cinema. It is right on top of Kowloon Station, one of the main transit stops, only one station away from Central. It is ringed by highrises, and they sell for very high prices. The whole thing is wildly popular, and is being copied throughout Hong Kong.

Here's the ring of buildings around it:

ICC is a 118-storey, 484 m (1,588 ft) skyscraper completed in 2010 : Wiki

That really tall one is the ICC (International Commerce Center), the tallest building in HK, and 5th tallest in the world. Maybe one day CLT will have the confidence to copy this high density development model, with mixed use and transport connections, and only limited catering to cars. (BTW, there is also a parking lot at Elements, but it can be expensive to park there.)
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Old 02-13-2013, 05:04 PM
3,463 posts, read 4,538,222 times
Reputation: 7127
Originally Posted by Geologic View Post
Can you explain a little what you mean by this.
I live far away, so it is not obvious

I'll try to be brief . . . South Florida is an A to Z compendium of everything that is wrong with America. 100's and 100's of miles of horrific infrastructure, the same strip malls, pill mills and other redundant, garbage McShopping business's. It's an unwalkable, deadly carhadists dream. There is something to be said for a population that sits back and watches while the rape of their area happens in front of them and then cheer it saying it's 'convenient', and another Appleby's that you can only get to by car is great addition to the one thats 3 miles away in the other direction. Can never have too many fast food joints Bath Salt zombies but brain dead from over-the-top junk consumerism and cars instead of chemicals. This is happening to the Charleston SC area. Its spreading like a biblical plague. To be fair though, thats most areas off the I-95 corridor, its just Florida was first and sets the bar lowest of all.
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Old 02-14-2013, 09:46 PM
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,207 times
Reputation: 217
(from the Asheville Carfree thread):

Originally Posted by Sean_CLT View Post
I have to agree that people don't move looking to "free themselves" from owning cars. Most people would move to the area already owning a car, and continue to use it.

A large part of the draw to Asheville is proximity to the mountains, being able to go hiking, fishing, kayaking. Well - you need a car to get out of the city and carry your gear.
That HAS been the case,
But I can see it changing. People function that way in other countries.
And the higher the oil price, the more likely a reduction in car commuting costs are to drive locational decisions.

Have you noticed that the two main "Point Zeros" (Stockton, CA, Las Vegas, and Phoenix) in the recent housing price crash...

...are all extremely car dependent cities, where people commuted a long distance.

Meantime Walkable cities like New York and Boston showed much smaller real estate price drops.

Car costs matter !
But Americans do not think about them as much as they should... but that may be changing.
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:45 PM
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,207 times
Reputation: 217
(York/Lancaster is OUT ... here's a posting from the Carfree thread there)

Originally Posted by GarlicPickles View Post
How come all your little indoctrination material sets up this "us versus them" scenario like people driving cars are the enemy? Also, if the rest of the world is laughing at us because we are so stupid and because of all the "difficulties" we are facing why do people continue to move here from overseas over probably every other nation combined (including you by the way). Also, if driving is such a financial drain why don't you live where almost nobody owns cars, New York City? Instead, you want a lower cost of living among all us "car addicts". Sounds like a car is a sound economic decision. It alllows you to live in lower cost, rural areas while still providing the ability to access areas of high employment opportunities etc... for far less than living in an urban setting.
Dear me.
Do you really believe what you have posted there?
I do hope you will look back on it in 2-3 years, when the economy may be different, and in maybe 5 years when dollar oil prices will be much higher, and see how accurate it was.

I am "going off " the idea of moving to your area, because it has become clear to me that the vast majority of your neighbors are simply not ready to face the dramatic changes that are needed to reduce their oil usage, and to have a less car dependent life.

People seem to be more ready in some other areas that I am investigating, so I may focus there.

Thanks to people's postings. I may not agree with them, but their opinions were useful.
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:40 PM
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,207 times
Reputation: 217
Originally Posted by creeksitter View Post
ImA, there are often walkable neighborhoods in small/medium sized cities.

I could point you to a few in my very car-centric city. I have or have had renters who do without a car and manage to keep down jobs, pay the bills, etc.
This is interesting to me.
Especially if they have good Rail connections.

Any suggestions?

I also want to escape from the other 3X Cash drains:
+ Excess military spending (so seeking areas without too many bases)
+ Excessive spending on healthcare and esp. Big Pharma drugs (stay healthy, use natural remedies)
+ Excessive predatory behavior by banks (stay out of debt, manage my own money)

So they ease of doing these things will also matter to me in a neighborhood.

Originally Posted by wrcousert View Post
If you're lucky enough to live in a city with a good transit system, get a monthly pass and rent a car when you need one.
My thoughts exactly!
For various reasons, I want to avoid NYC and Boston, and any city on either coast.

Originally Posted by nei View Post
Since you excluded the coasts, Chicago. There may be other factors you want to consider.
I lived there for 2 1/2 years (three winters), and it is just too cold.

Maybe Denver. I should look at that more closely. (new DV-CO thread )
But I was hoping for some more creative suggestions: Somewhere in TN. maybe?

(in edit):
Not TN, where the most walkable cities are at WS-40:
City====== : WS : Population
Knoxville---- : 40 : 178,874
Memphis---- : 39 : 646,889
Chattanooga : 37 : 167,674
Nashville---- : 36 : 601,222

/see: http://www.walkscore.com/TN

Last edited by Geologic; 02-15-2013 at 09:38 PM..
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:55 PM
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,207 times
Reputation: 217
Carfree : Can I live without a Car ?
The Carfree Movement: Car-free movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The car-free movement is a broad, informal, emergent network of individuals and organizations including social activists, urban planners and others brought together by a shared belief that cars are too dominant in most modern cities. The goal of the movement is to create places where car use is greatly reduced or eliminated, to convert road and parking space to other public uses and to rebuild compact urban environments where most destinations are within easy reach by walking, cycling or public transport
. . .
Urban design component

Proponents of the car-free movement focus on both sustainable transportation options and on urban design, zoning, school placement policies, urban agriculture, telecommuting options, and housing developments that create proximity or access so that long distance transportation becomes less of a requirement of daily life.

New urbanism is an American urban design movement that arose in the early 1980s. Its goal has been to reform all aspects of real estate development and urban planning, from urban retrofits to suburban infill. New urbanist neighborhoods are designed to contain a diverse range of housing and jobs, and to be walkable.
. . .

Car-free zones are area of a city or town where use of cars is prohibited or greatly restricted.

Living streets provide for the needs of car drivers secondary to the needs of users of the street as a whole. They are designed to be shared by pedestrians, playing children, bicyclists, and low-speed motor vehicles
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:11 PM
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,207 times
Reputation: 217
From the Carfree Asheville thread

Originally Posted by RVT View Post
I know that there are some people out there that want this scenario to happen and are working as hard as they can to make it happen. And I'll punch back against them twice as hard.
Punch back? Why?
Wouldn't that just be punching back at a changing reality?
How productive would that be?

BTW, I don't think that Carfree advocates are trying to REMOVE choice from you, just to create an attractive new choice where one hardly exists now. Why do you want to restrict their freedom to build pockets of carfree environments?

Last edited by Geologic; 02-15-2013 at 09:20 PM..
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:49 PM
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,207 times
Reputation: 217
Originally Posted by Geologic View Post
Maybe Denver. I should look at that more closely. (new DV-CO thread )
My "new" thread got merged with an "old" thread on Carfree Living that had 40,000 posts !

Originally Posted by yukon View Post
Wonderful post and info on the routes! THANK YOU! I lived in Dallas for years without a car (and that was BEFORE light rail), and Denver is on my very short relo list because of their transit system.
Here's some survey data that backs up Yukon's post about the quality of Denver's transport system:

TRANSIT Profiles
CITY--------------------- : Pct. : Waiting : Jobs : P+J-W (May 2011)
Provo-Orem, UT------ : 73% : 14.1min : 48% : 107%
Albuquerque, NM----- : 73% : 14.0min : 53% : 112%
Denver-Aurora, CO-- : 84% : 08.1min : 47% : 113%
Salt Lake City, UT---- : 89% : 08.5min : 59% : 139%
Greenville, SC-------- : 28% : 28.3min : 29% : 028%
Knoxville, TN ----------: 28% : 18.3min : 25% : 035%

Charlotte, NC--------- : 42% : 13.4min : 30% : 059%
Greensboro, NC------ : 43% : 14.1min : 29% : 058%
Little Rock, AR ------- : 37% : 19.3min : 37% : 059%
Wichita, KS------------ : 54% : 14.7min : 39% : 078%
Boise City, ID --------- : 52% : 22.4min : 34% : 064%
Columbus, OH-------- : 56% : 11.4min : 34% : 079%
Des Moines, IA ------- : 62% : 12.7min : 41% : 090%
Detroit, MI ------------- : 60% : 11.4min : 22% : 071%
Kansas City MO------- : 47% : 14.2min : 18% : 051%
Tulsa, OK -------------- : 47% : 19.6min : 31% : 058%
USA ave./ 100 cities-- : 69% : 10.1min : 30% : 086%

Other info:
According to the 2000 Census, 13.86% of Denver Residences did not own a car.
14.25% of Denver Residences were non-car commuters which would include walking, biking and transit. Transit accounted for 8.75% of daily commutes"

/see-post#13: Car Free living in Denver

Last edited by Geologic; 02-16-2013 at 12:09 AM..
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:38 AM
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,207 times
Reputation: 217
From the Carfree Denver thread:

Originally Posted by livecontent View Post
Thank you for your comments. Perhaps you can help me understand. I was talking to a neighbor who is selling a house 1/4 mile from a new commuter rail station. The listing does not indicate that the house is near a new station. The station would not be completed until 2015. The neighbor did not know about the station and contacted her real estate agent. The neighbor got back to me and said that the agent did not know about the station. In addition the agent felt it would not effect the value because it would not be built unitil 2015.
I am from Hong Kong, where the walking distance to a MTR (mass transit stop) has a huge impact on property values - and I find your anecdote AMAZING !

Is it still true?
If so, it may be a great time to pick up some property near to a transit station
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