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Old 02-14-2013, 09:24 PM
 
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,495 times
Reputation: 217

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKEETC View Post
I thought car ownership was on the rise in China. Are they not, therefore, similarly vulnerable?
[it isn't obvious]
A comparison (data may be a few years out of date):

Oil Consumption per Capita
==
U.S.A. : 27 barrels
China- : 3 barrels
==

Rising oil consumption since then, yes.
But China is still much less vulnerable than the USA

 
Old 02-14-2013, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Southern California
15,087 posts, read 17,558,796 times
Reputation: 10299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geologic View Post
A comparison (data may be a few years out of date):

Oil Consumption per Capita
==
U.S.A. : 27 barrels
China- : 3 barrels
==

Rising oil consumption since then, yes.
But China is still much less vulnerable than the USA
Oil consumption? Cars are responsible for part of the amount of oil consumption. Manufacturing and power generation use oil, as well. Oil consumption for any purpose makes any nation vulnerable.

[this isn't just about car dependency]
 
Old 02-14-2013, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,495 times
Reputation: 217
(From the Carfree in Rock Hill thread):

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarlicPickles View Post
The internal combustion engine has done more to elevate the standard of living, create wealth and promote freedom than perhaps any other invention in the history of mankind (the firearm might be the only contender). Was there a massive economic boom when man began walking upright? How about when the bicycle was invented? The train, though valuable, did not cause the kind of massive economic transformation as the automobile.

As for America getting poorer and other countries getting richer. As developing countries gain wealth there is more care ownership, more infrastructure and more energy creation. While at the same time we have all but eliminated our own production of energy. Energy is the most important commodity in the world and we have handed that market over to other countries because no one here wants to see an oil rig, a coal plant or forbid a nuclear plant out their window. But apparently it is okay for other countries to clear cut, strip mine and throw up as many under-regulated coal plants as they want (including 1200 proposed worldwide this year with 3/4 of them in China and India). The same is true for manufacturing. America was the home of the industrial revolution and made itself into the largest manufacturer of goods on the planet. We have allowed our manufacturing to be gutted in large part because we will not produce the energy needed to be competitive. Labor cost, contrary to popular belief, is not the sole reason manufacturing jobs leave the US. The cost of energy is an equal driver in moving jobs to developing countries.

As for the first question, yes. Because we refuse to utilize our own resources we are by definition dependant on others. I hate dependency and love self-sufficiency so that does concern me. If we did take advantage of our own resources I would be less concerned. However, at some point in the future we will need to find a different, but just as effective, fuel source. Batteries are not it.

I am not quite sure why you assume all of us "car-addicted" people are mindless and that you are the only one that has thought beyond the headlines of the mainstream media. Your point might be worth more consideration if you were not as condescending in your delivery. You post on lots of different forums, sometimes off topic in someone else's thread, always about the same thing. People come here for information sharing and getting questions answered. It is rude to hijack someone's thread to preach to them about how your way of life is better, smarter and more socially concious than theirs. It may be that lots of people have put "deep thought" into it and arrived at a different conclusion.

As a side note, all of the people I know that have either decided to not own a car or only own one car per family because of environmental reasonws spend half their time asking to borrow other people's cars.
Sure, cars were once a driver for wealth creation, but America went too far in building out its suburban infrastructure, and car use is now harming the country.

I suggest you need to take a good long look in the mirror.

Carfree folk are fed up to the gills" with the extraordinary arrogance of the car-dependent.

They have set the agenda, and robbed us of choices, certain they are right, while denying the enormous evidence to the contrary*.

I don't like to see people lose money, but the rise in oil which is coming, will devastate many who are not prepared for it. And while I may have sympathy for those who were REALLY TRAPPED, the vast majority still have many other choices and are simply in denial about how vulnerable they are, and how Cars and drivers are subsidized in so many ways.

Do you doubt that many people in other countries are laughing at the difficulties that the USA is now facing? Many would say: "The wasteful Americans have brought problems upon themselves by being so short-sighted."

You may not like to hear this from a fellow American, but I have lived overseas for many years, and can see things from both points of view.
==== ====

*From another Posting/ (see above):
=====
The car-dependent who control the political agenda in most cities, presume:

+ THEIR right to drive wherever they want, and have convenient parking must be preserved
+ THEY have the right to expect others to pay for half of highway upkeep through sales taxes
+ US Military personnel must risk their lives "to keep the oil flowing", and everyone must be taxed to keep a global military presence that costs American twice as much per capita as any of its allies
+ We all must breathe toxic air, contaminated by car exhaust, whether we approve of the subsidies to car owners or not
+ Precious oil reserves must be burned up (at low) prices so they can keep driving
 
Old 02-14-2013, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,495 times
Reputation: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKEETC View Post
Oil consumption? Cars are responsible for part of the amount of oil consumption. Manufacturing and power generation use oil, as well. Oil consumption for any purpose makes any nation vulnerable.
[this isn't just about car dependency]
Sure.
But the biggest difference is in car use - miles driven
 
Old 02-14-2013, 10:32 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,698 posts, read 8,486,989 times
Reputation: 4880
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geologic View Post
Sure.
But the biggest difference is in car use - miles driven
Sorta. There's also a big difference in the utilization of industrial agricultural equipment compared to countries with less farmland, trucking, and the manufacture of petrochemicals like laundry detergent and fertilizer. Still, its true that transportation is the main issue:




 
Old 02-14-2013, 10:50 PM
 
195 posts, read 235,348 times
Reputation: 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geologic View Post
(From the Carfree in Rock Hill thread):



Sure, cars were once a driver for wealth creation, but America went too far in building out its suburban infrastructure, and car use is now harming the country.

I suggest you need to take a good long look in the mirror.

Carfree folk are fed up to the gills" with the extraordinary arrogance of the car-dependent.

They have set the agenda, and robbed us of choices, certain they are right, while denying the enormous evidence to the contrary*.

I don't like to see people lose money, but the rise in oil which is coming, will devastate many who are not prepared for it. And while I may have sympathy for those who were REALLY TRAPPED, the vast majority still have many other choices and are simply in denial about how vulnerable they are, and how Cars and drivers are subsidized in so many ways.

Do you doubt that many people in other countries are laughing at the difficulties that the USA is now facing? Many would say: "The wasteful Americans have brought problems upon themselves by being so short-sighted."

You may not like to hear this from a fellow American, but I have lived overseas for many years, and can see things from both points of view.
==== ====

*From another Posting/ (see above):
=====
The car-dependent who control the political agenda in most cities, presume:

+ THEIR right to drive wherever they want, and have convenient parking must be preserved
+ THEY have the right to expect others to pay for half of highway upkeep through sales taxes
+ US Military personnel must risk their lives "to keep the oil flowing", and everyone must be taxed to keep a global military presence that costs American twice as much per capita as any of its allies
+ We all must breathe toxic air, contaminated by car exhaust, whether we approve of the subsidies to car owners or not
+ Precious oil reserves must be burned up (at low) prices so they can keep driving
You make it sound like people who own cars are part of some huge organized lobby who's only goal is to make everybody live in the suburbs. There is no giant organization. People just move to predominantly car centered areas because they want to. Car centered culture has not been forced upon you. You have every right to live in an urban, walk-able, area just as much as others have a right to live in a suburban car centered area.

Your also over exaggerating the rising price of Oil. Like I said in an earlier post oil has been stagnant the last 5 years. I agree that oil prices will rise in the future, but this rise will be slow. As supply gradually decreases, prices will gradually increase. And as the price increases, alternatives will become more economical. There's not going to be a day when we suddenly run out of oil and the world comes to a stop.

The only point of yours I agree with is expecting others to pay for highway upkeep. I think highway's should be funded completely by tolls, so that only people that use the highways have to pay for them, and so that the true economic cost of highway operations are visible. But if your going to make this argument then i'm assuming that you agree that mass transit should also be fully funded by ticket sales alone. I think its unreasonable to expect others to pay for mass transit they may never use.
 
Old 02-14-2013, 11:01 PM
 
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,495 times
Reputation: 217
WHO PAYS for Transport ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by apm193 View Post
You make it sound like people who own cars are part of some huge organized lobby who's only goal is to make everybody live in the suburbs. There is no giant organization. People just move to predominantly car centered areas because they want to. Car centered culture has not been forced upon you. You have every right to live in an urban, walk-able, area just as much as others have a right to live in a suburban car centered area.
Sure.
But I do not want to subsidize the drivers !

This is not only my idea - I have borrowed it from engineers and Town Planning experts.

To learn more, listen to BOTH of these two fine podcasts:

ST-Successful Transit
: http://www.strongtowns.org/strong-to...3-transit.html
Ian Rasmussen joins Chuck Marohn to talk about transit systems and how they should be viewed as the Suburban Experiment continues to wind down.

ST-Highway Financing : http://www.strongtowns.org/strong-to...y-funding.html
Chuck is solo - digging into an article by the McClatchy news service titled, U.S. keeps building new highways while letting old ones crumble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apm193 View Post
Your also over exaggerating the rising price of Oil. Like I said in an earlier post oil has been stagnant the last 5 years. I agree that oil prices will rise in the future, but this rise will be slow...
LOL! How do you know that Oil prices will stay down?
Like most commodities, oil moves in cycles, and the next upleg may coincide with a falling dollar, and get very ugly indeed.

If I am going to risk my money in US Real Estate, I will only do it in an area where I can live carfree. If you want to take the risk of being car-dependent, that's your decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apm193 View Post
The only point of yours I agree with is expecting others to pay for highway upkeep. I think highway's should be funded completely by tolls, so that only people that use the highways have to pay for them, and so that the true economic cost of highway operations are visible. But if your going to make this argument then i'm assuming that you agree that mass transit should also be fully funded by ticket sales alone. I think its unreasonable to expect others to pay for mass transit they may never use.
I partly agree with this - but it may take time to get to a reasonable ridership where it is remotely possible:

Here's what works:
+ Mass Transit only works where there is enough density near the stations, and there is an urgent need for Charlotte to add density and the "right urban, mixed-use fabric" (restaurants, groceries, and some other retail and commercial space) around its rail stations. That may push the rail line towards self-sufficiency while improving quality of like for those who want to live near the stations

+ To make it livable, you need to keep large open parking areas away from the Stations - listen to the Podcast with Ian Rasmussen to hear more about this

+ The capital costs of the train line are best funded with property development profits, which should accrue on the land near the station. The train line makes the land more valuable, and so some of the uplift in value can and should be passed back to the builders of the train line - that's how they did it in HK, and the line gets zero subsidy from the government.

+ The existence of the train line is like a public utility serving the neighborhood, so a portion of the local taxes might be passed back to cover a portion of the running costs.

Last edited by Geologic; 02-14-2013 at 11:24 PM..
 
Old 02-15-2013, 12:08 AM
 
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,495 times
Reputation: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geologic View Post
...there are four main cash drains, that are funneling wealth away from Middle Class Americans:

1. Oil depency: ie the Suburban living arrangement, and 9 million bpd of oil imports
2. Military spending: the US spends twice as much per capita on "defense" as it allies
3. The US heathcare system, which is geared towards using expensive pharmaceuticals
4. The predatory financial system, which drains wealth year-to-year and requires occasional bailouts

If all four of these were full addressed and modified to drain little wealth, then the US would soon be back on the road to prosperity.
.
More on the Predatory Financial system:

BOB DIAMOND SAID this...

This dovetailed with what Bob Diamond, the former head of Barclays, told the British Parliament the day after he stepped down last year. "There is an industrywide problem coming out now," he said. Michael Hausfeld, a famed class-action lawyer who is suing the banks over LIBOR on behalf of cities like Baltimore whose investments lost money when interest rates were lowered, says the public still hasn't grasped the importance of comments like Diamond's. "Diamond essentially said, 'This is an industrywide problem,'" Hausfeld says. "But nobody has defined what this is yet."

Hausfeld's point - that Diamond's "industrywide problem" might be more than just a few guys messing with rates; it could be a systemic effort to pervert capitalism itself - underscores the extreme miscalculation of both recent no-prosecution deals.

====

/see-MattTaibi: NESARA- REPUBLIC RESTORED - Galactic News: ISA_GANGSTER BANKERS "TOO BIG TO JAIL"_EVEN TODAY_circa 2013
 
Old 02-15-2013, 03:56 AM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna. (birthplace)
12,351 posts, read 7,503,405 times
Reputation: 15950
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvande55 View Post
What gets me is the price of most energy is stable or declining, but oil stays high. Although electricity and heat can be generated from any fuel, petroleum has a monopoly on motor fuel. That is why oil producers have us over a barrel.
Of course, High Speed Electrified Rail avoids that issue in Europe, but American politicians have informed us that it is an invention of the devil and they are to be praised for saving us from it.
High Sped Rail serves only a portion of Europe (not at all in Great Britain save for the Chunnel). Most Europeans still travel mostly via gritty conventional rail systems. If you want a picture of what most European rail service is like, rent the film Caught on a Train (filmed, BTW, in Ostend, Belgium).

Rail commutes are a fine idea -- if you live in or near a major city, and work a conventional 9-to-5 schedule. A substantial portion even of those who live in the right places don't work at the right hours. And the insrability of the current job market means you can't count on keeping that fixed. and convenient schedule.

As to the vehicles themselves, the market has been adapting for decades. When I finished my education back in 1972, I bought an 8-cylinder 302 cubic-inch Ford Galaxie. Today I get around in a 4-cylinder Focus. II also suspect that the continuing reduction in the size of autos, rendering them uncomfortable for long-distance travel, has an effect upon the markets. More people than ever fly to their vacation destinations -- then rent a smaller vehicle. And finally, the developent of alternative fuels and hybrids continues.

Only the availability of a personal auto has allowed me to commute weekly, from one rural area to another, and to work at a reasonably well-paying job instead of going crazy in a micro-managed call center for little than minimum wage. The last thing I need is "help" from a collection of juveniles and dreamers who think they and Big Brother know whats best for all of us.
 
Old 02-15-2013, 04:02 AM
 
118 posts, read 177,976 times
Reputation: 163
The car is a big wealth drain, but the military is the big wealth destroyer
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