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Old 02-20-2013, 01:56 PM
 
10,630 posts, read 23,412,818 times
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What, the suburban families plow their own streets?! That's not how it works around here, anyway.

And why are you separating out affluent suburbs? The OP -- unfairly, I think -- lumped all suburbs together(and did paint a picture of suburban affluence), but the 'burbs these days are no longer the bastions of affluence. Poverty has become a major suburban problem, with the rate of suburban poverty growing far more rapidly than urban poverty. More poor people live in suburbs than in cities.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Southern California
15,087 posts, read 17,561,114 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Oh, I'd believe the CDC. They're the ones I'm always quoting in these anti-immunization threads that are so popular on parenting and P&OC. I just don't believe that there are any links that can show that city kids
"kids grow up much more independent and capable, far less bored, far less likely to get into the kind of trouble you get into when you're a bored kid, far more cultured, far more aware, and far more interested."

What stereotyping!
The distinctions between the city and the surburb are so vague and subjective, I doubt you'll find any link that will provide definitive answers.

[that are objective]
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:00 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 17 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,992 posts, read 102,568,112 times
Reputation: 33059
Quote:
Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist View Post
What, the suburban families plow their own streets?! That's not how it works around here, anyway.

And why are you separating out affluent suburbs? The OP -- unfairly, I think -- lumped all suburbs together(and did paint a picture of suburban affluence), but the 'burbs these days are no longer the bastions of affluence. Poverty has become a major suburban problem, with the rate of suburban poverty growing far more rapidly than urban poverty. More poor people live in suburbs than in cities.
Most people in my suburb do own a snow shovel or two (or four, like we do).

Re: the bold, more people live in suburbs than cities, too. I think percentage-wise, the prize for # of poor still goes to the cities.
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:07 PM
 
10,630 posts, read 23,412,818 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Show us a boat, then, e.g. links. I know young adults like to live in "the city", but are they staying there to raise kids? The birth rate is at an all-time low. Maybe they're just not having kids.
Have you been to Manhattan lately? The elementary schools are bursting at the seams. Last year the birth rate for lower Manhattan was higher than anywhere else in the city.

As far as all the studies and polls, well, you don't have to look far for those. Just crack open practically any urban planning magazine or read any blog and you'll find all the links you could ask for. Now that does not mean that ALL millenials want to live in an urban, walkable neighborhood, or that all of them can do so, even if that's what they'd prefer, but a lot of them do. Some interesting relevant stories:

No McMansions for Millennials - Developments - WSJ
Do Millennials Want to Call Your City
Why Generation Y is Causing the Great Migration of the 21st Century | PlaceMakers

Now maybe they'll all have kids and move to auto-dependent subdivisions. Could be.

As far as shovels, people in cities and in inner-ring suburbs tend to own shovels, too. You can't shovel out an entire road with one, though. I still don't understand that point.
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,258 posts, read 26,231,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist View Post
Have you been to Manhattan lately? The elementary schools are bursting at the seams. Last year the birth rate for lower Manhattan was higher than anywhere else in the city.
Yeah, but it remains to be seen if many of them will stay and actually raise those kids in the city. One of my friends and his wife live in Manhattan with their newborn and they've already made it clear they're headed for Jersey or relocating to the DC suburbs once he's old enough to go to school. I think it's also tough getting your kid into a good middle school in NYC, which is usually when you see the biggest drop off of white students.

Quote:
Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist View Post
As far as all the studies and polls, well, you don't have to look far for those. Just crack open practically any urban planning magazine or read any blog and you'll find all the links you could ask for. Now that does not mean that ALL millenials want to live in an urban, walkable neighborhood, or that all of them can do so, even if that's what they'd prefer, but a lot of them do. Some interesting relevant stories:
I always take those types of blogs and magazines with a grain of salt. I remember talking to my brother about transit measures in Atlanta and he was like, "Huh?" When I told him about stuff I had read on the Streetsblog site, he said, "Man, that's about 40 people who read that site. You make 41. Most people in Atlanta want their cars despite what a damned website says." I think there's often a wide gulf between the perception of urban fanatics on urban planning sites and the reality in the cities they live in.
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:29 PM
 
Location: IL
2,992 posts, read 4,418,425 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by semiurbanite View Post
(this info was previously posted but got buried in another thread so I wanted to make a new thread specific to this subject)

We currently live in a semi-urban area on the fringe of Boston. We have two small children, and many of our friends have move to the suburbs in the last few years. We have stuck it out, and when we go visit our friends in the suburbs we always come back home, glad we live where we do, but also realizing its not for everyone. For so many, it seems to be a foregone conclusion that suburbia is best for kids, so here is a challenge to that:


1. Its quieter here. Sounds crazy, right? One catch - as long as you live on a side street. Almost everyone uses a quiet reel lawn mower and week-whacking takes all of 4 minutes per week. Contrast this with the relatively open plains of suburbia where the noises of construction and gas powered lawn mowers travel far and wide especially on Saturday afternoons. In dense areas the homes also create significant noise insulation.

2. Independence for young teens. The 13-17 year olds in our neighborhood have an amazing level of freedom. They can walk to Harvard Square, or several other squares with their friends. They can walk to the train and go into Boston. Because of the high density of children, they can walk to the homes of most of their school friends.

3. Exposure to the world for toddlers. The 1-4 year olds tend to get out more and see more without having to be strapped into a car every single time they leave the house. When you can throw them into a stroller and walk a few blocks to everything you need, they get exposed to the world much more. As a quick example, this Saturday we walked to the local Winter Market, then to the local butcher shop. Sunday we walked to lunch and then to the natural history museum.

4. Safety. Think I am crazy again? What's the #1 killer of teens? Car accidents. Teens that can walk are much less likely to be driving a car when they turn 17-18.

5. Social interaction. We can walk to 5 playgrounds from our house. Every one of them is full of families with kids every afternoon. Families often make an afternoon of it and bring lunch. Suburban playgrounds often tend to be empty, as the kids tend to play independently on the swingset in the back yard. There is a year round farmers market we can walk to, and in warmer months there is a fun kid-friendly street festival almost every weekend.

6. Diversity. I love the mix of people here. The other parents in our preschool have mostly non-corporate jobs. They are architects, non-profit managers and founders, artists, jewelry makers, and faculty at local universities. They tend to be people who pursued their interests in life as opposed to chasing money on the corporate ladder. Contrast this with the suburbs where it seems almost everyone has a corporate management job.

Benefits of suburban vs semi-urban:

1. More room to roam - yards, and sometimes even woods to explore. I find that this is especially beneficial to boys from the ages of 5-11. After age 12 the wears off and the isolation and car dependence of the quiet cul-de-sac kicks in. My experience with girls is that they tend to be fine with smaller yards at any age. Outdoor space is critical, but mose suburban yards are much bigger than they need to be for kids.

2. Perception of Schools - High scoring schools makes parents feel better. However if you believe the overhwelming data showing that student scores are driven almost exclusively by SES and parental imvolvement, regardless of the school, this holds less water.
Many of your pluses of the city are the same as my burb...lots of parks, walkable to stores, diverse, quiet enough, very social, etc. Train to the city is 3.5 miles away though, so a bit of a haul.

More benes of my burb...

I think young children have more opportunity for independence in the burbs. If I'm cooking, I surely will not let my 5 year old outside alone in the city, but I will in the burbs.

More opportunity to spontaneously play with other kids in the burbs. No need to plan an outing, my kids walk out the door, look to see who is already outisde, and if no one is out, they get on their bikes and ride up and down the sidewalk...more kids end up coming out. No planning, just kids playing. In the summer especially, our kids end up in about 3-4 different yards a day.

Easier to play with my kids. One kid says, Dad, do you want to play soccer? I say okay, but I only have a few minutes...then we walk out the back door and play.

More unplanned social events. My kids will be roaming about playing outside and I'll be out doing something outside and start talking with a neighbor...this leads to an inpromptu barbeque, pizza party, or something. Happens all the time on my street.

School environments seem more conducive to learning in the burbs, at least in my experience.

Just a few off the top of my head.
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:36 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 17 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,992 posts, read 102,568,112 times
Reputation: 33059
Quote:
Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist View Post
Have you been to Manhattan lately? The elementary schools are bursting at the seams. Last year the birth rate for lower Manhattan was higher than anywhere else in the city.

As far as all the studies and polls, well, you don't have to look far for those. Just crack open practically any urban planning magazine or read any blog and you'll find all the links you could ask for. Now that does not mean that ALL millenials want to live in an urban, walkable neighborhood, or that all of them can do so, even if that's what they'd prefer, but a lot of them do. Some interesting relevant stories:

No McMansions for Millennials - Developments - WSJ
Do Millennials Want to Call Your City
Why Generation Y is Causing the Great Migration of the 21st Century | PlaceMakers

Now maybe they'll all have kids and move to auto-dependent subdivisions. Could be.

As far as shovels, people in cities and in inner-ring suburbs tend to own shovels, too. You can't shovel out an entire road with one, though. I still don't understand that point.
No, I have not been to Manhattan lately. I just thought since you said there was a boatload of evidence, that you might be inclined to share some of it.

I read your links. Very few facts, a lot of opinion. One article mentioned Boulder, CO which doesn't even have 100,000 people, and is actually a suburb of Denver as a destination for whatever you guys want to be called this hour. I had to laugh. Here some article from the Boulder daily paper, from last week:

Boulder hears tough message about lack of middle-income housing - Boulder Daily Camera
Boulder eyes changes to preservation rules as housing stock turns 50 - Boulder Daily Camera

And as for Boulder having "hip employers follow them", what a joke! Boulder is constantly trying to limit jobs. They wanted a recession, and they got it. Read the comments about this business which is moving back to Boulder, from Westminster:

Back to Boulder: Spectralink returning home after 6-year absence - Boulder Daily Camera

Here's one:
"So will this mean 120 more workers commuting into Boulder from Denver burbs by the end of the year? (Great for the environment! Choak Choak...)
OR is residential real estate available in Boulder at prices/size that Spectralink employees/salaries can afford? Does anyone in Boulder care??
Commercial growth GOOD. Residential growth BAD. Now that is "ATTITUDE"
Yes, I know public transportation into Boulder is an option, but maybe not for parents whose kids need before/after school pick ups, rides to dentist, doctor, soccer games, piano lessons, etc. at times that do not jive with public transit."


The birth rate for the US is at its lowest point, ever:
U.S. Fertility Rates Fall To All-Time Low : Shots - Health News : NPR

I do think that suburban people may be more prepared for a blizzard. Camping is popular among us, so we have camping equipment and can live "off the grid" for a few days anyway. Most of us who live in areas where it snows know how to drive in snow and can get our cars out so we can go somewhere, e.g. work. (My office rarely closes.)
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Old 02-20-2013, 03:18 PM
 
10,630 posts, read 23,412,818 times
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My suburban friends aren't any more likely to go camping than my friends who live in the city. Talk about stereotypes! I'd like to see some statistics on THAT! And snow doesn't discriminate against suburban or urban areas -- it's not as though the clouds stop at municipal boundaries. You think people who live in urban areas don't know how to drive in snow?! Admittedly I don't -- I don't drive -- but I know how to walk, and I know how to get to the bus stop. (and the buses here are generally busier when it snows, as it's easier and faster to let someone else do the driving!) And seriously, when have you ever seen anyone shovel out their own streets? I haven't, and I've lived in a variety of winter cities. Plows tend to come by pretty quick and the odds time when they don't, even if you plowed your own street then it wouldn't do you much good if the rest of the road network was impassable. (only ran into this once, in the Mid-Atlantic, and the entire state was shut down -- making it illegal for non-essential drivers, regardless of their home address, to be out driving.)

Seriously, I don't know how anyone could have missed the ample reporting that Millenials like urban living. The links I posted were just casual links to stories, but they are reporting on studies and reports. Here's one for you:
http://www.rclco.com/generalpdf/gene...__G._Logan.pdf

Sure, a lot still want to live in suburbs. But even then, many people actively want more "urban" amenities like walkability.

And yes, I know that the birth rate is falling. But there are still going to be some kids around, and it seems that a larger percentage of families with kids are now interested in living in more urban environments (forget about municipal boundaries here! These are suburbs, too -- they're talking form and function, not formal city boundaries) where they can walk more place and have more options. Not every family wants or can afford that, but that has been the trend. The polls show that younger people like to be able to walk places, and prefer to live in neighborhoods where that is possible.

Last edited by uptown_urbanist; 02-20-2013 at 03:26 PM..
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Old 02-20-2013, 03:34 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 17 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,992 posts, read 102,568,112 times
Reputation: 33059
In re: camping, I'm just going by my experience. It seems that more people who live in the burbs like to camp than those in the city. We keep reading on this forum that urbanists are more cultured, and you can't have a conversation with a butterfly. It seems evident that urbanists don't like to camp.

A link from a developer!

Funny that according to the link, Gen X and Gen Y (AKA millenials) are more likely to want to live in the burbs than us old codgers. It's extremely stereotypical of Boomers, as well. Most Boomers, are in fact still working. Only Boomers born in the first two years of the BB cohort (1946-1964) are completely 65. Those born in 1948 are just now turning 65. The largest number of births occurred in 1957 and 1961. Those people are turning 56 and 52, respectively. Add to that the increase in age to collect SS (66 for people born between 1943 and 1954, meaning some of the earliest Boomers are still working, adding two months every year until birth year 1960 when it will be 67), we are going to be in the work force for a long time. We're not looking for retirement villas just yet, for the most part.

http://geography.about.com/od/popula...a/babyboom.htm
http://www.ssa.gov/retirement/1960.html

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 02-20-2013 at 05:01 PM..
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,602 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by semiurbanite View Post
2. Independence for young teens. The 13-17 year olds in our neighborhood have an amazing level of freedom. They can walk to Harvard Square, or several other squares with their friends. They can walk to the train and go into Boston. Because of the high density of children, they can walk to the homes of most of their school friends.
Wonderful - I think it is great for the children,
I spent four years in that environment (Harvard), and I still miss it

You are lucky to be able to afford it
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