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Old 03-05-2013, 01:24 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I think Australia and Israel are the two countries closest to the U.S. in terms of suburban focus. From what I had read, as suburbs developed in Britain, they were actually lampooned by the wealthy, which (coupled with a more aggressive sense of upper-class status) might be why they never became an attractive place for the rich to live.
Eh. The very wealthy may not live in the suburbs in England, but many of the well-off live in outlying districts of a city (note that suburbs in British English refers to any neighborhood outside the center city regardless of city limits). London has an area known as the stockbroker belt, where many wealthy finance workers choose to live commuting by train to the city, past the greenbelt of London in another county. (the Dursleys of Harry Potter were supposed to live there).

Property in the suburbs: Britain's top 10 richest suburbs - Telegraph

Of course, it's also common for the wealthy to live near the center city but they don't avoid the burbs. The most deprived areas of the UK are in inner cities hit hard by industrial decline, which was severe starting in the 60s. My guess is the UK has the most American pattern of western Europe in living arrangement, though still very different.
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:10 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I think Australia and Israel are the two countries closest to the U.S. in terms of suburban focus..
Israel? where did you get this idea? Aside from the high price of gasoline there, and the fact that until recently the price of an auto was much higher compared to income than even in europe, israel has historically not had a free market in land - 90% or more of undeveloped land was owned by the quasi-governmental Jewish National Fund, which sold it for urban developments in limited amounts, tending to preserve agriculture instead by leasing land to farming communities. As a result israeli cities tend to be quite dense, with relatively few american style suburbs. Its true that until recently they have had little rail transit, but they have very extensive, heavily utilized bus systems.
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:16 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
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Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
Israel? where did you get this idea? Aside from the high price of gasoline there, and the fact that until recently the price of an auto was much higher compared to income than even in europe, israel has historically not had a free market in land - 90% or more of undeveloped land was owned by the quasi-governmental Jewish National Fund, which sold it for urban developments in limited amounts, tending to preserve agriculture instead by leasing land to farming communities. As a result israeli cities tend to be quite dense, with relatively few american style suburbs. Its true that until recently they have had little rail transit, but they have very extensive, heavily utilized bus systems.
My wife has Israeli friends, and they have repeatedly told me how it's a very auto-dependent country. It's also almost entirely post-WW2 construction for obvious reasons. I knew it wasn't very sprawling, but I'll accept a mea culpa in trusting what people who lived there said.
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:16 PM
bg7
 
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Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
There's a paradox here in that as more conventional middle class people move to the cities the cities will then become more conventional and boring; suburbs with smaller yards so to speak. Where you gonna find a good Polish or Bohemian bakery then? Why out in the burbs of course.
Many immigrants, priced out of super-cities like NYC, are moving to the burbs, when they move to the same burb, the businesses follo. I'm seeing it.
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:28 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Again, if the students skimmed off would otherwise be in the suburbs or private schools, it doesn't hurt anything at all. And considering the difference between middle class public school enrollment in Boston or NYC (where it's a minority, but there are options) and someplace like Philadelphia or Washington DC (where no one who is white and middle class sends their kids to public school) suggests this is the case.

For the most part, I don't think there's anything easy that city schools can do differently. They're bad schools because they have bad students - students who are primed to not do as well as middle class suburban students for a host of potential reasons. Teaching itself seems to have nothing to do with it, however, as any time a substantial number of poor minority students are sent to a wealthy suburban school, they tend to do just as bad as they would in their home school. There may be some solutions which will work, but merely firing teachers, or alternatively throwing more money at failing schools, will do nothing, because neither teachers nor resources are the issue.
Well, the more of these public academies there are, the more "good" students they will skim off. It seems like some cities are setting up more and more of these schools, to attract young professionals to the city. Currently, there are some good public, comprehensive high schools in most cities, certainly in Denver.


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I don't think Denver has had much of a history of racial tension (the black population is very small there), but it has definitely been white flight in Pittsburgh. The largest black neighborhood was essentially trashed in riots after the death of Martin Luther King, and in combination with other issues (demolition of the lower portion for an arena in the 1950s, public housing scattered around the city, poor urban planning ruining areas, and later the crack epidemic), resulted in the black population being dispersed in different pockets elsewhere in the city, and the white abandonment of fairly sizable portions of the North Side and the East End. Things have stabilized now in most neighborhoods, but the poor black population is now moving to the suburbs as the city gentrifies.
Denver schools were under court-ordered desegregation for about 20 years. I searched for a local article to post about this, and all I could find was this one that you have to listen to, if you so choose. It's not too long. Some of the people involved in the original suit still feel that the schools should have retained busing for integration purposes. Denver has a large enough black population to be considered, and a very large Hispanic population.
Colorado Public Radio - 40 Years Later: Remembering Desegregation in Denver Schools


Quote:
When there's a national black-white test score drop, and white parents take their kids out of public schools, aggregate scores are going to drop. It doesn't mean the quality itself dropped.
You're right that school scores don't mean anything to any particular student. However, schools with few high-achieving students will offer fewer courses for them.
Quote:
All of this is true, but I'd argue the population wasn't "replaced" insofar as any growth in the black population wasn't anywhere near large enough to compensate for all of the loss of the white middle class.
Agreed.

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 03-05-2013 at 02:40 PM..
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:28 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
My wife has Israeli friends, and they have repeatedly told me how it's a very auto-dependent country. It's also almost entirely post-WW2 construction for obvious reasons. I knew it wasn't very sprawling, but I'll accept a mea culpa in trusting what people who lived there said.

I would need to know the context - for intercity travel autos are very doable, because the cities are not all that far from each other (cause its so small) and theres little passenger rail other than a few city pairs. As the country has grown more prosperous, I suppose theres been a shift from the traditional reliance on buses to more auto usage, esp in the smaller cities. But the post war construction is typically multifamily, and usually would feel fairly urban to an american. single family homes are called villas, and middle class people only live in them, AFAICT, in the smaller peripheral cities - rarely in greater Tel Aviv or Jerusalem or even Haifa. In fact one of the inducements to move across the green line was the prospect to get a house (rather than an apt) within a doable commute of Jerusalem or Tel Aviv.

Today even apartments are difficult for young couples to afford in the main cities of central Israel.
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:50 PM
 
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I think people are still having families, just later, and fewer kids. I'm not sure there's a large block of people who will never have kids.
That bloc has actually been gradually growing since the early 1980's:

Pew Social Trends, June 2010 - Childlessness Up Among All Women; Down Among Women with Advanced Degrees

And that study used pre-recession data. Since the recession, those rates have risen more sharply than they were rising in the past. We're talking about a fifth of the population and rising, so, it's not an insignificant cohort.
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Old 03-05-2013, 03:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
As far as I can tell, your argument here is "ignore the actual data, just trust me." You realize that as a random person on the internet, an appeal to authority kind of falls flat right?

Regardless, I was not saying there was no difference between urban and suburban air quality today. I was saying it's a lot less than it used to be. In Pittsburgh, the smog used to be so bad cars used headlights during the day, and white-collar workers packed a second shirt to change into in the afternoon.



If suburbs don't cater to the middle class, who do they cater to? The majority of people in the U.S. live in suburban areas now, IIRC. You're not telling me they are all wealthy are you?
I'm not ignoring the actual facts, I just can't troll the internet all day to find the relevant hyperlink.

City vs. Country: Who Is Healthier? - WSJ.com

Suburbs on average are upper middle class. Rural areas are an entirely different demographic.
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:15 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Well, they can only take so many students. If there are more qualified applicants than spaces, then they have to resort to lottery, I guess. We don't really have "magnet schools" out here, although Denver School for the Arts might be considered such, b/c students do have to audition or submit a portfolio of work to be considered for admission. The rest of our non-neighborhood schools are charters, and charters are lotto admission, with some "preferences", e.g. sibling goes there, children of teachers in the district, etc.
Another negative is the magnet schools foster overcompetiveness at a young age. Helps poor families that care about education:

Around Sunset Park, Tutoring is Key to Top High Schools
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
My wife has Israeli friends, and they have repeatedly told me how it's a very auto-dependent country. It's also almost entirely post-WW2 construction for obvious reasons. I knew it wasn't very sprawling, but I'll accept a mea culpa in trusting what people who lived there said.
Haifa may be the perfect example of the dense yet unwalkable city.
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