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Old 02-25-2013, 09:57 PM
 
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,742 times
Reputation: 217

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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyonpa View Post
Business owner see that have 'free' parking lots are good for business.
They thought that when they built the Malls in the outer ring suburbs. The land was cheap, and they could build big malls surrounded by seas of free parking lots. But now many of those suburban malls are struggling, and some have gone bust. What went wrong with that model?

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyonpa View Post
Look what happened to all the downtown stores when the mall's open'ed. The customers said 'why should i go down town have to fight for a space and pay for it' when I can go to that mall, park 'free' and the prices are more or less the same.
Okay. You are right. "Build it and they will come," rarely worked when it came to Downtown malls.

(They missed an important fact, which is obvious to anyone who has lived in a truly walkable city like London or Hong Kong, or even NYC or Chicago.)

Key question:
How do you get the customers to the mall, if you are not enticing them with "free" parking?

Answer (which has worked so well in LON and HK):
You build the mall next to, or on top of the transit station, along with plenty of mixed use development, including residential apartments and homes. Then you have two now customer groups to replace those who may not find so much parking:

+ The people who live within walking distance of the station and the mall, and
+ The people who live near other stations, and will take the transit to go shopping, leaving their cars at home, and
+ Whatver parking you do have should be out of the way (of the "favored" pedestrians) in multi-story parking lots, which do not interfere with pedestrian access to transit.

In short: "CARS ARE LAST" - which is a slogan of the Walkable neighborhoods movement

Get this right, and both the transit line and the mall will thrive. But so many American cities seem to miss out on this important concept.
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:02 PM
 
Location: Southern California
15,087 posts, read 17,565,220 times
Reputation: 10299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geologic View Post
Is "Free" parking really Free? Who pays for it?
Nothing in the built environment is free.

[this isn't debatable]
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:10 PM
 
2,941 posts, read 3,859,209 times
Reputation: 1439
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeepRightPassLeft View Post
They don't want to have a grocery store 2 blocks away, or live upstairs from the barber, or have to take a train to get anywhere outside of a 10-20 minute walk. Not everyone, maybe 2/3rds of the country if I had to guess. The rest of the folks can migrate to our cities and enjoy their walkable lives there while those who want nothing to do with that (like myself) can enjoy our free, convenient parking in day to day life.
That is because the people that advocate these things don't live in the real world(tm). I suspect many are higher income or childless. In the case of higher income things like zip car are readily available or taxies are abundant.

I live two blocks from a grocery store and walked to it. I had loaned my car out and wanted some items that I had missed in the weekly gocercy shopping. It was quite cold that day, and the store did not have all the items I wanted. If I had driven it would be easy to solve this problem just drive to the other store just 4 blocks down the street. However given that it was like in the teens or twenties and windy and those 4 blocks would increase the distance I had to walk home from 2.5 blocks to 6.5 blocks I did not go to that store. In addition both stores while convenient are not cheap in terms of prices, I could easily burn a gallon or two worth of gas and it would be worth it if I were buying for the week.

Live on top of the barber wouldn't be bad there are worse things. The trouble with apartments esp.
older ones is that the noise. i.e. Work nights and want to hear the upstairs toddler running and playing? In addition where I live apartment buildings can lack laundry faculties so now you need to haul your clothes to the Laundromat and do that without a car or easy parking there! And my own Barber is out of a 10 min walk, without my car it would be a short bus ride (in fact I can think of no barber less than a 15 min. walk away).

Need to carry an infant? try doing that on the bus with the infant and it’s stuff (diaper bag ect..) vs. just driving. Need to carry a small child(who can't keep up walking) again driving is better.

Need to carry more than you can hold or an heavy item or bulky item you have bought driving is better.

And this area is the south side of Chicago, while not extremely dense, it is denser than many other places(esp. burbs) in the US.
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:12 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,610 posts, read 3,761,847 times
Reputation: 1616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geologic View Post
They thought that when they built the Malls in the outer ring suburbs. The land was cheap, and they could build big malls surrounded by seas of free parking lots. But now many of those suburban malls are struggling, and some have gone bust. What went wrong with that model?
So there aren't any walkable main streets that suffered after a walmart or other big box set up shop on the outskirts and surrounded itself with parking?

I think the reasons for struggling malls are largely due to too much retail and decreased retail spending.

Btw KeepRightPassLeft, do you really think many people would find a grocery store 2 blocks away undesirable or did you just mean some people don't care much if it's 2 blocks or 20.
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:17 PM
 
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,742 times
Reputation: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKEETC View Post
Nothing in the built environment is free.
[this isn't debatable]
Sure.
But the larger question is bigger than that one-liner:
"Is it time to Plan American Cities with less parking, which are less "friendly" for Cars?"
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:25 PM
 
Location: Southern California
15,087 posts, read 17,565,220 times
Reputation: 10299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geologic View Post
Sure.
But the larger question is bigger than that one-liner:
"Is it time to Plan American Cities with less parking, which are less "friendly" for Cars?"
No.

[let the free market decide]
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:26 PM
 
195 posts, read 235,433 times
Reputation: 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKEETC View Post
No.

[let the free market decide]
Agreed.
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:26 PM
 
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,742 times
Reputation: 217
Default If you don't like my message, listen to StrongTowns

Quote:
Originally Posted by memph View Post
So there aren't any walkable main streets that suffered after a walmart or other big box set up shop on the outskirts and surrounded itself with parking?

I think the reasons for struggling malls are largely due to too much retail and decreased retail spending.

Btw KeepRightPassLeft, do you really think many people would find a grocery store 2 blocks away undesirable or did you just mean some people don't care much if it's 2 blocks or 20.
Do you listen to the Strong Towns podcasts?
Maybe you should. Chuck Marohn talks about that.

He says that many cities have erred by giving Walmart huge tax incentives to set up on the outskirts of their cities. That is often a net zero sum game, or even a Net Negative return, since the city must then build and maintain infrastructure to service the new Walmarts. Meantime, the new store cannabalises the existing shopping outlets, often in the downtown areas.

Check Strong Towns podcasts : http://www.strongtowns.org/strong-towns-podcast/

Marohm recommends a different policy: Doing cheaper things that enrich the downtown area, and which make it a better place to live and shop.
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:31 PM
 
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,742 times
Reputation: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKEETC View Post
No.
[let the free market decide]
Well, if you really think that, then lets move to a free market.
Without all the subsidies for Cars, highways, and parking.

I think you must be one of those "free marketeers" who wants free markets only so long as the rules are written in your favor.

Even many years of severe deterioration of the relative economic standing of the US will not get the stubborn to see that something's wrong, the system is not working as it should.

Don't you think it is time to try to understand what is wrong?
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:36 PM
 
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,742 times
Reputation: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
@KeepRightPassLeft

Of course, since land is much cheaper in your low density Staten Island example, the free parking isn't very expensive for the business to provide while in your Manhattan example it would be prohibitively expensive. In an in between area, a business could choose to charge for parking rather than passing the costs over to every consumer, but that's often more trouble than it's worth.

The Manhattan example is crowded but enjoyable (to me) to visit. The Staten Island example it'd nice if it were a bit more pedestrian friendly rather than just auto-oriented.
I agree.
Where America has tried building sufficient density-and-transport to support less parking, there have been many successes. Where they favor cars too much, or forget the need for density, there have been many failures.

If I gave you a list of Shopping Malls that have gone bust in the last five years or so, I think it would be a very long one.
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