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Old 02-25-2013, 10:38 PM
 
Location: Southern California
15,087 posts, read 17,578,558 times
Reputation: 10299

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geologic View Post
Well, if you really think that, then lets move to a free market.
Without all the subsidies for Cars, highways, and parking.

I think you must be one of those "free marketeers" who wants free markets only so long as the rules are written in your favor.

Even many years of severe deterioration of the relative economic standing of the US will not get the stubborn to see that something's wrong, the system is not working as it should.

Don't you think it is time to try to understand what is wrong?
Yes. Which is why we should stop manipulating the free market.

[when people actually know and pay what it really costs to live an automotive-centric lifestyle, they will change]
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:50 PM
 
195 posts, read 235,672 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geologic View Post
I agree.
Where America has tried building sufficient density-and-transport to support less parking, there have been many successes. Where they favor cars too much, or forget the need for density, there have been many failures.

If I gave you a list of Shopping Malls that have gone bust in the last five years or so, I think it would be a very long one.
The opposite could be argued actually. Look at all the downtown department stores that have closed their doors in the last few decades. They are in the middle of the densest parts of cities. According to your hypothesis they should be doing great.

Conversely look at all the new strip malls, walmarts, targets etc. that are opening up and doing fine. Yet they are usually located in some of the least dense parts of cities.

Honestly I don't think there's any correlation between density and business success.
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:03 PM
 
195 posts, read 235,672 times
Reputation: 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKEETC View Post
Yes. Which is why we should stop manipulating the free market.

[when people actually know and pay what it really costs to live an automotive-centric lifestyle, they will change]
It would be interesting to see what would happen. One the one hand people would have to pay more for roads and highways especially in the suburbs. But on the other hand people in Urban areas would also have to pay much more for public transit.
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:04 PM
 
2,941 posts, read 3,863,448 times
Reputation: 1439
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKEETC View Post
Yes. Which is why we should stop manipulating the free market.

[when people actually know and pay what it really costs to live an automotive-centric lifestyle, they will change]
We already do with taxes of all types. I love public transit, think it is important but the automobile genie isn't going back in the bottle.
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:18 PM
 
Location: Southern California
15,087 posts, read 17,578,558 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post
We already do with taxes of all types. I love public transit, think it is important but the automobile genie isn't going back in the bottle.
Which I think is the wrong way to go about it. Taxes blur the true cost because the taxpayer never really knows where the tax dollars are going. And the tax itself is often applied to something only abstractly related to what the tax is for.

A good example is the gas for a lawnmower. Why should the landscaper pay a tax (that partly pays for road construction, operations, maintenance, etc.) on the gas that powers the lawnmower when he isn't going to take the lawnmower on the road? Roads should be paid for by taxes on the car (not general fund sales taxes) or on the road (tolls) or both.

[i agree the car will with us for some time - until the gas gets too expensive]
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:52 PM
 
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 874,327 times
Reputation: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by apm193 View Post
The opposite could be argued actually. Look at all the downtown department stores that have closed their doors in the last few decades. They are in the middle of the densest parts of cities. According to your hypothesis they should be doing great.

Conversely look at all the new strip malls, walmarts, targets etc. that are opening up and doing fine. Yet they are usually located in some of the least dense parts of cities.

Honestly I don't think there's any correlation between density and business success.
Have you not read my posts above?
I will repeat one last time:
Housing Density and access to transport are critical for the success of downtown malls
, and downtown areas.

Do you think all Walmarts are wildly successful? I doubt it. But getting all those tax incentives, and paying their people a pittance must help.

The most successful malls that I have seen are in HK, and they use a tried and tested model. None of them are surrounded by seas of parking lots. In fact, the cars are kept out of sight for the pedestrian shoppers.

If you want to go on believing nonsense, and ignoring my posts, I cannot stop you. But I will recommend you listen to the following podcast from Strong Towns:

Show 123: Transit / Jan. 17, 2013

MP3 (69MB) : http://www.strongtowns.org/storage/p...13_Transit.mp3

Ian Rasmussen joins Chuck Marohn to talk about transit systems and how they should be viewed as the Suburban Experiment continues to wind down.
== ==

We brought this mess on ourselves

Parking Minumums - many cities have them

This is one of the things that inspires a surplus of free parking. Many cities require any new development to have a MINIMUM number of free parking spaces as part of their zoning restrictions. So if you are building an apartment house, you may need to have one parking space for each bedroom. With requirements like this, "free" parking is paid for by the developer, who passes the cost on to the homeowner.

Is this how Free Markets operate?

Last edited by Geologic; 02-26-2013 at 12:09 AM..
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:55 PM
 
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 874,327 times
Reputation: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKEETC View Post
Which I think is the wrong way to go about it. Taxes blur the true cost because the taxpayer never really knows where the tax dollars are going. And the tax itself is often applied to something only abstractly related to what the tax is for.

A good example is the gas for a lawnmower. Why should the landscaper pay a tax (that partly pays for road construction, operations, maintenance, etc.) on the gas that powers the lawnmower when he isn't going to take the lawnmower on the road? Roads should be paid for by taxes on the car (not general fund sales taxes) or on the road (tolls) or both.

[i agree the car will with us for some time - until the gas gets too expensive]
I think you are focused on anthills, when you should be thinking about the Mountains.
Let's save our cities, and then we can worry about the lawnmowers.

Last edited by Geologic; 02-26-2013 at 12:10 AM..
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Old 02-26-2013, 02:09 AM
 
2,941 posts, read 3,863,448 times
Reputation: 1439
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKEETC View Post
[i agree the car will with us for some time - until the gas gets too expensive]
In theory autos can run on natural gas, fuel cells, battery.... the auto will be around on one form or another for a very long time.
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Old 02-26-2013, 03:20 AM
 
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 874,327 times
Reputation: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post
In theory autos can run on natural gas, fuel cells, battery.... the auto will be around on one form or another for a very long time.
The horse and buggy are still around, but not used as widely as they once were.

I for one, seek a carfree future, or at least a car-light future, where cars and parking do not dominate the US landscape the way they do now.
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Old 02-26-2013, 03:37 AM
 
3,463 posts, read 4,547,183 times
Reputation: 7127
The cost I am most concerned about is a very high one that has not been mentioned yet . . . All that concrete ruins any habitat or environment it covers. All those water tables being corrupted, specied being killed-off, displaced-- from a more important moral standpoint, its just wrong. Cant pay back that cost any way you do the math.
All this 'cost' and destruction, for . . . . nothing.

From a more financial related standpoint, go to a local zoning board meeting the next time a developer plans a McMansion invasion on your area. Watch as officials determine who pays for the various cost analysis relative to the assault. Listen for the words "ingress and egress maintenance", finally, watch as your taxes rise to pay for all this stuff which includes parking for 2,3, 4 cars in some instances.
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