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Old 02-26-2013, 08:53 AM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 11,098,346 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeepRightPassLeft View Post
I strongly believe that it's a matter of the opinions and values of the populace..the United States grew up with a culture of individualism, private property, the whole "lone wolf" idea, and even if the government helps people out to be able to live a pretty autocentric, individualist lifestyle, I'm okay with that. .
Just to clarify ... you're OK with government subsidzing an autocentric lifestyle, because it's indivdiualistic to do so?

My personal belief (we do not need to sidetrack), is that the car, the suburban home, et al., is a pretty good proxy for individualism ... though still a proxy.
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:07 AM
 
Location: Monmouth County, NJ & Staten Island, NY
407 posts, read 407,348 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HandsUpThumbsDown View Post
Just to clarify ... you're OK with government subsidzing an autocentric lifestyle, because it's indivdiualistic to do so?

My personal belief (we do not need to sidetrack), is that the car, the suburban home, et al., is a pretty good proxy for individualism ... though still a proxy.
Yes, I am okay with that, because I feel that the majority of Americans like the idea of using their cars, home ownership, private property and the convenience of a car based lifestyle. Be it a "proxy" for individualism, as it's not the same as Jesse James riding his horse into uncharted areas of the wild west in the 19th century, but I think it provides an enjoyable lifestyle for a lot of people who prefer the control, isolation, comfort and individual control of their own vehicle for transportation. Of course, not everybody agrees and to some...the idea of a "car based lifestyle" to be stifling, unenjoyable and just plain wrong for themselves. For those people, as I've said we have plenty of cities which are established, up and coming and some of them could use a little boost. I say instead of worrying about what suburbia is doing, and how the government helps sustain infrastructure for not just suburbanites but people from everywhere in America, people who want the urban existence should get together and form lobbying groups, development companies and initiatives to help revitalize and grow the urban model. If enough people truly do want to break away from the traditional suburban lifestyle, I'm sure the government's actions will follow suit. Just look at arguably the biggest boon to the downtown Jersey City revitalization, the opening of the first segment of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail in 2000...a huge portion of it's construction paid for by the federal government.

http://www.fta.dot.gov/documents/Reg...dsonBergen.pdf
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:23 AM
 
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 872,207 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeepRightPassLeft View Post
...For those people, as I've said we have plenty of cities which are established, up and coming and some of them could use a little boost. I say instead of worrying about what suburbia is doing, and how the government helps sustain infrastructure for not just suburbanites but people from everywhere in America, people who want the urban existence should get together and form lobbying groups, development companies and initiatives to help revitalize and grow the urban model....
"Leave the suburbanites alone, and let them go on picking our pockets, and burning up a limited resource"
- Have I got that right. Is that your main message??

Basically, we have done that for decades, and look at the mess we are in !

I think we can do better as a country, and I hope that people have the good sense to see the dangers inherent in sticking with a failing model for living. As far as coercing people: I would be inclined to vote for politicians with the courage to talk about stopping the cash drains due to:

+ Excessive Oil imports
+ Excessive Military spending

But very few have the courage to talk about it, because there are too many (selfish?) Americans keen to VOTE AGAINST THEM in order to protect the living arrangement that they have become accustomed to. So we may need to wait for "market forces to apply their inevitable pressure", but it takes some real patience to wait out all these "slow scenes in the movie" that we are living through.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Monmouth County, NJ & Staten Island, NY
407 posts, read 407,348 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geologic View Post
"Leave the suburbanites alone, and let them go on picking our pockets, and burning up a limited resource"
- Have I got that right. Is that your main message??

Basically, we have done that for decades, and look at the mess we are in !

I think we can do better as a country, and I hope that people have the good sense to see the dangers inherent in sticking with a failing model for living. As far as coercing people: I would be inclined to vote for politicians with the courage to talk about stopping the cash drains due to:

+ Excessive Oil imports
+ Excessive Military spending

But very few have the courage to talk about it, because there are too many (selfish?) Americans keen to VOTE AGAINST THEM in order to protect the living arrangement that they have become accustomed to. So we may need to wait for "market forces to apply their inevitable pressure", but it takes some real patience to wait out all these "slow scenes in the movie" that we are living through.
If peak oil is really the issue here (and I've seen plenty of arguments for and against this), then I think the better future course of action would involve designing more efficient personal transportation, or using alternative sources of energy as well. I don't think that personal transportation will be going away any time soon, the popularity of 11 MPG SUV's may decline (I'd love to own a used one and keep it parked away for use to haul stuff or snow storms/plowing) and we'll see more efficient vehicles, but I think a lot of Americans love their environments that they live in, they enjoy using personal transportation and we will be able to accommodate it just as we also see a rise in your style of walkable, mixed-use areas for the people who prefer them.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:50 AM
 
2,493 posts, read 2,193,007 times
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I'm always amazed by people that have no problem with their 45 minute commute twice a day, but don't have time to walk 10 minutes. Spending 1.5 hours a day in a car EVERYDAY, would be hell for me.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Monmouth County, NJ & Staten Island, NY
407 posts, read 407,348 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddyline View Post
I'm always amazed by people that have no problem with their 45 minute commute twice a day, but don't have time to walk 10 minutes. Spending 1.5 hours a day in a car EVERYDAY, would be hell for me.
I would say that not everyone in suburbia has a 45+ minute commute by car, and even those who do, there's a chance that a lot of those people truly enjoy their driving. I currently commute about an hour each way by car, and while the drive itself can be a little stressful at times, I generally enjoy the solitude and comfort of my car, my climate control, my radio and my availability to switch routes or make easy stops along the way for whatever reason I desire. That being said, when my relocation to the suburbs of Cincinnati goes through, my office will only be a 10-15 minute drive, if that, each way from the apartments I'm looking at.

And, speaking of opinions, for some people living in a dense, walkable area where driving is often expensive and inconvenient, they would find that having to walk 10+ minutes or ride mass transit to get around to be hell for themselves.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:05 PM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 11,098,346 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeepRightPassLeft View Post
Just look at arguably the biggest boon to the downtown Jersey City revitalization, the opening of the first segment of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail in 2000...a huge portion of it's construction paid for by the federal government.

http://www.fta.dot.gov/documents/Reg...dsonBergen.pdf
You know all the highways you drive on are also substantially subsidized by the fed, right? Or, you do know that, but think that it is morally right to subsidize them but morally wrong to subsidize transit.

The HBLR is pretty much seen as a success, too (unlike the Riverline on the other side of the state).
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:09 PM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,985 posts, read 41,937,844 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HandsUpThumbsDown View Post
The HBLR is pretty much seen as a success, too (unlike the Riverline on the other side of the state).
I've wondered how successful the HBLR is.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,610 posts, read 3,760,401 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeepRightPassLeft View Post
Yes, I do believe that a lot of people would find having commercial development within a short walking distance to be undesirable, just as I would expect many people would find it to be the only way that they would want to live. That's why, for people who don't want it (like myself) we have suburban style developments, and for all of those who like walking 2 blocks to the Whole Foods instead, we have plenty of urban areas.
Why wouldn't you want to live 2 blocks from a grocery store? 2 blocks is far enough that you wouldn't be affected by noise from delivery trucks and cars coming in an out, and you could still drive if you wanted.

Why would a place like this be undesirable for being 2 blocks from the shopping plaza which has a grocery store (among other things)? Oakville, ON - Google Maps
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Ypsilanti
389 posts, read 400,365 times
Reputation: 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeepRightPassLeft View Post
I strongly believe that it's a matter of the opinions and values of the populace..the United States grew up with a culture of individualism, private property, the whole "lone wolf" idea, and even if the government helps people out to be able to live a pretty autocentric, individualist lifestyle, I'm okay with that. Now there are many people like yourself who feel that the urban lifestyle is the best way to live (for me, it'd be hell lol) and for those of you who feel this way, you have two options...move to an established city and work towards improving the urban lifestyle there to fit your needs....or move to a more blighted, fragmented urban area and help be part of the driving force that gets people back into that city. I'd be willing to bet that in this country, you will still have huge numbers of people who wish to stay and enjoy their suburbia, but for those who don't like it, get out and find your "place" that makes you happy. Go into a struggling city like Detroit, Cleveland or Buffalo and be part of a driving force that could give Portland a run for its money.
Why should people who want an urban lifestyle, have to put up with living in struggling cities, where in some cases those cities don't have good transit, aren't very walkable, crime problems, understaffed city services like police, firemen, ambulance etc?
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