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Old 03-05-2013, 10:14 AM
 
195 posts, read 235,546 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
[1] The automobile / bus is more convenient, but not "better". They waste resources, surface area, belch noxious fumes, and leave all manner of detritus (ex: tire fragments, oil) behind.
[2] ?! Have you ridden a bus recently? Miserable experience !
[3] Rail infrastructure is far cheaper over the long run than pavement. There are tracks still in operation that were laid in the 1870s (authenticated by mill stamps on the rails). Rail rolling stock lasts far longer than buses.
[4] Absent public subsidy of paved roads and infrastructure, streetcars would have been the dominant form of urban land transport.
[5] No facts in evidence to support that conclusion.
[1] Depends on your definition of better. I think for most people using transit every day, the more convenient and faster options are 'better'.

[2] Modern buses are very spacious and comfortable.

[3] But streetcar infrastructure is not just rail, its rail and pavement.

[4] Possibly, but how do you know that private companies would not have built paved roads if there was no public subsidy?

[5] The average speed for the Portland street car system is about 7mph. Buses can travel much faster than this because they can accelerate quicker, and can change lanes if something is obstructing the regular lane. They become much faster if an off board fare collection system is used.
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Old 03-05-2013, 10:27 AM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 11,105,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apm193 View Post
[1] [3] But streetcar infrastructure is not just rail, its rail and pavement.
? The wheels only operate on the rails. (low resistence=high efficiency).

Quote:
Originally Posted by apm193 View Post
[
[5] Buses can travel much faster than this because they can accelerate quicker,
False. Though they are getting better with hybrid electric motors.
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Old 03-05-2013, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,068 posts, read 16,090,068 times
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Actually it's true. Streetcars like the Skoda 10 T aren't fast at all, they top out at around 40 mph They weigh twice as much as a bus and are little more powerful. On top of that, I've never been on a streetcar "driven" aggressively. Bus drivers more frequently will because they have to stick to a time table, whereas streetcars operate on a more lackadaisical "when it gets there, it gets there" philosophy, the idea being they get there frequently enough that people don't arrive at a stop at a particular time.

You also completely missed the point of #3. The point is streetcar tracks are in a road that needs to be resurfaced just as often as any other road. They usually use cement since that holds up a bit better than asphalt under the weight of a 30-40 ton streetcar, but yeah. You can't just slap down some slurry seal for rather obvious reasons that streetcars don't run on asphalt very well.
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Old 03-05-2013, 10:57 AM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 11,105,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Actually it's true. Streetcars like the Skoda 10 T aren't fast at all, they top out at around 40 mph They weigh twice as much as a bus and are little more powerful. On top of that, I've never been on a streetcar "driven" aggressively. .
I was commenting on the accleration from a dead stop, not top end. Electric motor + very little resistence > diesel motor + lots of resistence. Anyway, why would we concern ourselves with anything over 40 mph when comparing a streetcar (used almost exclusively for local service) with a similar bus route?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Bus drivers more frequently will because they have to stick to a time table, whereas streetcars operate on a more lackadaisical "when it gets there, it gets there" philosophy, the idea being they get there frequently enough that people don't arrive at a stop at a particular time..
Opposite for here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
You also completely missed the point of #3. The point is streetcar tracks are in a road that needs to be resurfaced just as often as any other road. They usually use cement since that holds up a bit better than asphalt under the weight of a 30-40 ton streetcar, but yeah. You can't just slap down some slurry seal for rather obvious reasons that streetcars don't run on asphalt very well.
I guess I completey missed why that matters, too. If you need the capacity the streetcar offers, there's a point at which the higher operating costs of the bus make it the less attractive option.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,068 posts, read 16,090,068 times
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And more Jet Math... LOL

freeways have a capacity of about 2,000 cars an hour. Using JetMath(TM), this is a theoretical capacity of somewhere between 14,000 and 28,000 (7 and 14 passenger vehicles) commuters per hour. Oh, sorry, that was JetMath(TM) 4Trains. I mean, 18 lanes since 50% of cars actually don't carry anyone, they're just automated Google Cars taking themselves for joy rides.

JetMath(TM) 4Trains is great and all, but it isn't reality.
Reality:

N-Judah rush hour express bus service trimming trip times, overcrowding | SF Public Press
N-Judah at rush hour. Looks, comfy.

Since JetMath(TM) 4Trains tells us that streetcars can easily handle 20,000 passengers per hour per direction, N-Judah must be moving a whole lot of people, right? Well, no. It actually carries 45,000 a day. In both directions. Ah. Then JetMath(TM) 4Trains says it must only run for an hour a day! Nope. It doesn't. It runs about 21 hours. Like the JetMath(TM) 4TrainsApplied2Cars of 28,000 per lane per hour, the JetMath(TM) 4Trains doesn't have anything to do with reality.

Reality: Light rail is just about the same energy efficiency as the average car per passenger mile. Of course, you have you San Diego's... but even San Diego isn't as good as the average Prius, let alone a Prius with five passengers. It's also not any cheaper than cars.
http://www.seattle.gov/transportatio...r%20Review.pdf

Real cost per boarding, $3 per boarding. Average car has 1.5 passengers = $4.5. I guess it just depends on how many trips you take a day. Let's call it four. That's either to work and back and one other round-trip per day, or just to work with one transfer. $4.5x4x365 = $6,000. Hmm. I thought transit was cheap? Or maybe it's just cheap to me because I only pay for about 20% of the costs and then pretend to be morally superior to drivers and their road subsidies. Oh, and we haven't factored in capital costs of the rail yet, either, so it just gets worse.

Last edited by Malloric; 03-05-2013 at 11:26 AM..
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,068 posts, read 16,090,068 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HandsUpThumbsDown View Post
I guess I completey missed why that matters, too. If you need the capacity the streetcar offers, there's a point at which the higher operating costs of the bus make it the less attractive option.
Except that streetcars have lower capacity than buses. They also cost so much to run in comparison to buses that they don't always make fiscal sense. For example, Sacramento put in three LRT lines on its busiest bust routes and then rerouted the buses to go serve as inefficient feeder routes and provide welfare transit of last resort to. And the buses are still cheaper per boarding and per passenger mile.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:49 AM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 11,105,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Except that streetcars have lower capacity than buses. .
Source?
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:01 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,068 posts, read 16,090,068 times
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Posted it before, but here we go again.
Bus Versus Rail: Costs, Capacities and Impacts – Journalist's Resource: Research for Reporting, from Harvard Shorenstein Center

Not specifically for streetcars, but since streetcars are low capacity form of LRT and buses (BRT) have higher capacity than LRT...
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:19 PM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 11,105,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Posted it before, but here we go again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Not specifically for streetcars, but since streetcars are low capacity form of LRT and buses (BRT) have higher capacity than LRT...
In the article (didn't open the study), it says nothing about vehicle capacity, which is what I thought were talking about. It does say buses have the lowest average line capacity per hour.

It does give the ranges for capacities. I don't know why these are given as a range. BRT can carry 9,000 to 30,000 per hour and LRT can carry 12,200 to 26,900.

I don't really think the upper figure of LRT vs. BRT line capacity proves that a local streetcar has a lower capacity than a lower bus. I don't think this is the right source to make that argument.

One advantage of streetcars (or LRT) is that capacity can be added by adding cars. This alone makes capacity higher than a bus. Add to it more standing room, and even more can fit:

Streetcars are more flexible about capacity - Greater Greater Washington
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,068 posts, read 16,090,068 times
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I'm not sure what's hard to understand about 30,000 being higher than 26,900. Even if streetcars weren't low capacity forms of light rail, 26,900 is still lower than 30,000. This seems indisputable to me, but you say you disagree. /Shrug.

I'm not sure what's hard to understand about capacity for various transit systems being given in a range. Seattle Streetcar was designed to be easily upgradeable to carry around 12,000 per DAY. The APM in SeaTac was designed to be able to move 14,000+ people per HOUR. They're both light rail. But you don't understand how they can have a different capacity? That's as obvious as 30,000 being larger than 26,900 to me. /Shrug.

I never said a hypothetical local streetcar had a lower capacity than a lower (? not sure what that means, a lower used bus?) bus. Or do you just literally mean a bus with lower usage than a given streetcar? I mean, it's rather obvious that Seattle's streetcar has a higher capacity than the (lower used) hopper bus that runs down Highway 99 six times a day.
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