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View Poll Results: Which city is more Urban
Chicago 114 79.17%
Los Angeles 30 20.83%
Voters: 144. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-01-2013, 08:24 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,258 posts, read 26,226,229 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by munchitup View Post
Maybe you (Bajan) should post your hypothesis in the LA board and see if people agree.
Right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovehound View Post
It's not impossible to live in Los Angeles without a car, but it would be incredibly limiting. Los Angeles is not built like a lot of other urban areas where all the conveniences and necessities are found within a small area. Most of us residents end up driving all over the place for employment, shopping, entertainment, educational, medical and other needs. There are only a very few areas of the city where a person with limited needs might find all of them within easy biking distance. In all practicality you'll be traveling 200-300 miles a week and that's low for most of us. At my last job I traveled 250 miles a week just to work and back. Taking cre8's 12 miles in 40 minutes, that's 18 mph or about 14 hours a week and probably more. I don't know about anybody else but I would find it difficult peddling my ass around on a bicycle for 2+ hours a day every day of the week, and that's a lot of time out of your day too.
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Pasadena, CA
10,087 posts, read 13,105,724 times
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Annual Miles Driven per Household:

Top 10 Most Miles:

10. Riverside / San Bernardino / I.E. - 19,700
9. Washington DC area - 19,900
8. Jacksonville, FL - 20,300
7. South NJ Suburbs - 20,600
6. Greensboro - High Point - Salem - 20,700
5. Monmouth / Ocean County, NJ - 21,100
4. Nashville, TN - 21,200
3. Atlanta, GA - 21,200
2. Charlotte, NC - 21,500
1. Raleigh / Durham / Chapel Hill - 21,800

Top 10 Least Miles:

10. San Jose - 16,000
9. Orange County, CA - 16,000
8. Buffalo, NY - 16,000
7. New Orleans - 15,800
6. Ft. Lauderdale, FL - 15,700
5. San Francisco, CA - 15,500
4. Bergen / Passaic, NJ - 15,200
3. Miami, FL - 14,100
2. Los Angeles / Long Beach - 12,800
1. New York, NY - 9,800

http://www.forbes.com/2011/05/10/gas...ies_slide.html



So yeah, like we said - people in Los Angeles don't drive around that much (even if combined with OC would still be way up at the top of this list). Even if they are taking a lot of trips in cars, the vast majority are within their own neighborhood. Keep in mind there is a stat (unsourced) floating around that 20 percent of trips in Los Angeles County are on foot - it's been used by Eric Garcetti and several other high-profile politicians, which leads me to believe it is at least close to accurate.

Two other things I notice:

Atlanta is right up there in vehicle miles traveled, which lines up with what you said about people driving all over the metro area.

Chicago is in neither list, which means the average Chicagoan drives more than the average Angeleno.

Nothing wrong with Lovehound's quote, but he clearly drives longer distances (perhaps more often) than the average Angeleno, and by a lot.
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:22 AM
 
Location: In the heights
22,131 posts, read 23,642,005 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I would say it's definitely true. Someone living in the Valley has probably been to Hollywood (possibly to have dinner or go clubbing), Downtown (for work), Santa Monica (for entertainment), etc. The average Angeleno, even those living in Central Los Angeles, have more reason to venture across the region. How many people in Manhattan are going to New Jersey or Westchester ever? They might to go the Hamptons in August, but for the most part, people are content to stay in the city and never leave because everything they want to do is on the Island.
They've been to Hollywood in the sense that someone from Suffolk County has been to Times Square many times or that there is this one lounge they were introduced to in the Lower East Side which they like to go to sometimes. Would you then consider their opinions about the city particularly accurate? I'm not sure what you're arguing here. I said that people living in the suburban parts of LA aren't that familiar with the urban parts and the people who live in the suburban parts make the vast majority of people who live in Los Angeles (and while still saying they are from Los Angeles even if it's in the county and not the city proper). You are going to have people who have been downtown for an event or two or have gone to Hollywood for a concert. That doesn't make them really know that much about the city.
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,258 posts, read 26,226,229 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by munchitup View Post
So yeah, like we said - people in Los Angeles don't drive around that much (even if combined with OC would still be way up at the top of this list).
That wasn't precisely my point. I'm not talking about how many miles people drive in any given year. I'm talking about their exposure to the region overall. New York is not like Los Angeles where there's any particular reason to travel to Rahway, White Plains, Dix Hills, Passaic or any other outer area of the region for shopping, entertainment, employment or otherwise. Los Angeles, in contrast, is much more dispersed. There are job centers, tourist attractions and entertainment clusters scattered all over the place that people from other parts of the region will go see. I would imagine that most people in the LA region have been to the Santa Monica pier at least a few times in their life, but I bet a whole lot of people living in Essex County have never been to Long Island.

Quote:
Originally Posted by munchitup View Post
Even if they are taking a lot of trips in cars, the vast majority are within their own neighborhood.
Again, this is not exactly the idea I'm getting at. 98% of Manhattanites have no reason to go anywhere outside of Manhattan. That's far from being true for people living in Hollywood because things are all over the region.

Quote:
Originally Posted by munchitup View Post
Keep in mind there is a stat (unsourced) floating around that 20 percent of trips in Los Angeles County are on foot - it's been used by Eric Garcetti and several other high-profile politicians, which leads me to believe it is at least close to accurate.
We need context for numbers, right?

Quote:
Twelve percent of all trips in Los Angeles were done by walking or cycling, according to the recently released Benchmarking Report by the Alliance for Biking and Walking (2010). The national average was 9.6 percent.


http://la-bike.org/sites/default/fil...is%20Lantz.pdf

Another source.

Quote:
12% of all trips are by bicycle (1.0%) or foot (10.5%).
http://peoplepoweredmovement.org/sit...ing%202012.pdf

http://peoplepoweredmovement.org/sit...%20-%20WEB.pdf

If you look at the 2012 report, Atlanta (#18) actually ranks ahead of Los Angeles (#20) for walking and cycling levels. That's why I don't put that much stock into these surveys.

Quote:
Nothing wrong with Lovehound's quote, but he clearly drives longer distances (perhaps more often) than the average Angeleno, and by a lot.
I wasn't emphasizing the distance he drove. It's certainly true that people in Chicago drive longer distances, particularly those commuting to the downtown core. But that's not the same as driving all over the place for shopping, entertainment, etc.

Last edited by BajanYankee; 05-01-2013 at 11:13 AM..
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,258 posts, read 26,226,229 times
Reputation: 11716
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
They've been to Hollywood in the sense that someone from Suffolk County has been to Times Square many times or that there is this one lounge they were introduced to in the Lower East Side which they like to go to sometimes. Would you then consider their opinions about the city particularly accurate?
Yes, I would. They could make assessments such as "the area has lots of shops and is always bustling" or "I used to work over there and it's a pain in the ass to get there on transit." It's the same way you wrote a long post in the New York forum about different parts of the city I'm sure you've never lived in. I don't think I have to live on the Grand Concourse to give an assessment of the Bronx. In fact, I've never even lived in Center City Philadelphia and I make assessments about that all of the time. I don't have to rent out a condo in Center City to assess its urbanity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
I'm not sure what you're arguing here. I said that people living in the suburban parts of LA aren't that familiar with the urban parts
But that's my problem: this is an assumption you're making. You could only know how familar they are by asking. I mean, have you ever lived in Koreatown? You may visit friends there on occasion and go to bars there, but then the same could also apply to many people living in the Valley (i.e., Lifeshadower).
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:18 AM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
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I'd say most Suffolk County residents, especially college age / 20 something ones, are somewhat familiar with the more visited parts of Manhattan. And mostly take the LIRR there. They may be unfamiliar with much of the rest of the city, unless they have family still there. Grand Concurse = a place not to go. For younger residents, a chunk of their high school friends have moved to Manhattan (or parts of Brooklyn and Queens, particularly those looking for cheaper rent). The proportion of residents working in Manhattan is far greater than the porportion of residents in an outer LA burb working in downtown LA. Some suburban Manhattan workers have a poor sense of the city much outside of Midtown Manhattan (or just a very skewed sense of "urban"), though they'll ususally have seen a few outer borough neighborhood.
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Pasadena, CA
10,087 posts, read 13,105,724 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
That wasn't precisely my point.
I think it is a pretty decent way to quantify what you are assuming (for some reason you have no problem making your own assumptions, but Oy's informed assumption is invalid? ). Especially because Atlanta totally lines up with what you are saying. People live very neighborhood-centric lifestyles in Los Angeles. Yes they visit other areas of the city but not at the rate you are assuming, plus Central Los Angeles is nowhere near the draw that Manhattan is - Manhattan is the center of NYC's universe, while the dense, urban parts of Los Angeles are just another place, at best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I'm not talking about how many miles people drive in any given year. I'm talking about their exposure to the region overall. New York is not like Los Angeles where there's any particular reason to travel to Rahway, White Plains, Dix Hills, Passaic or any other outer area of the region for shopping, entertainment, employment or otherwise. Los Angeles, in contrast, is much more dispersed. There are job centers, tourist attractions and entertainment clusters scattered all over the place that people from other parts of the region will go see. I would imagine that most people in the LA region have been to the Santa Monica pier at least a few times in their life, but I bet a whole lot of people living in Essex County have never been to Long Island.
Santa Monica Pier (one of the most iconic tourist attractions in the nation) =/= Long Island (at best a regional attraction, but mostly just a big Orange County-like suburb)

Oh and as for the 20 percent figure, it is based on the 2009 National Household Travel Survey: http://saferoutescalifornia.files.wo..._nhts20091.pdf
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:43 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,258 posts, read 26,226,229 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by munchitup View Post
I think it is a pretty decent way to quantify what you are assuming (for some reason you have no problem making your own assumptions, but Oy's informed assumption is invalid? ).
No, it's not. Because even I as a tourist have been to Santa Monica, Venice, Downtown and Hollywood. As a decentralized metro area, people are going to interact with more of it, plain and simple. This is not an assumption. The attractions and amenities are spread out compared to New York. That's a fact.

Oy's assumption is that people from the suburbs have opinions that are less valid than his because they aren't as familiar with the city as he is. That's a completely unwarranted assumption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by munchitup View Post
People live very neighborhood-centric lifestyles in Los Angeles.
I don't care about their lifestyle. I only care about their exposure to the region as a whole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by munchitup View Post
Yes they visit other areas of the city but not at the rate you are assuming, plus Central Los Angeles is nowhere near the draw that Manhattan is - Manhattan is the center of NYC's universe, while the dense, urban parts of Los Angeles are just another place, at best.
What's the rate you think I'm assuming? I just said they may have been there enough to make a general assessment about it. It's the same way I can make a general assessment about Bergen County. And Central LA does not have to be the draw Manhattan is. There's just no reason to assume that someone living in Glendale is completely clueless about Central LA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by munchitup View Post
Santa Monica Pier (one of the most iconic tourist attractions in the nation) =/= Long Island (at best a regional attraction, but mostly just a big Orange County-like suburb)
Not the point. Nearly everything in Los Angeles is more dispersed than it is in NYC whether you're talking about jobs, entertainment, or tourist attractions. People in Central LA will often have cars because they want to go and do a variety of things across the region. People in New York don't have cars because they're living more like Carrie Bradshaw on the 23 sq. mile island we call Manhattan. Nobody buys a car in New York so they can experience all that Paramus, New Jersey has to offer.
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:09 PM
 
Location: Pasadena, CA
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Interestingly enough, Los Angeles is doing much better in the poll on its own page.
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,258 posts, read 26,226,229 times
Reputation: 11716
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchitup View Post
Interestingly enough, Los Angeles is doing much better in the poll on its own page.
Should that be surprising considering that the typical LA boosters also voted in the poll? That's why I specifically requested that the poll not be anonymous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Just make sure to include a poll and make it where you can see who's voting for what.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
I stayed in The Loop last summer, and it blew my So Cal native butt away in terms of urbanity (and all that goes with it).
I guess he's never been to Koreatown, Hollywood, or DTLA. Someone should let him know they exist.

Last edited by BajanYankee; 05-01-2013 at 12:26 PM..
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