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Old 04-04-2013, 07:57 PM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 11,112,325 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenWood View Post
And you know what happens? These courses are either bought and managed by other companies or razed and turned into something else, usually tract housing.
Or an outsized number of them relative to the city population continue to be funded by my property taxes.
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Old 04-04-2013, 08:46 PM
 
4,023 posts, read 3,269,945 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pantin23 View Post
because the free market does not always determine what is best, only what you can get the most bang for your buck for. Ho about If we use the environmental policies of a completely free market, not so well, huh

I agree about that. Casinos and strip clubs bring in a lot of money, probably a lot more than golf courses do. Does that mean we should allow casinos and strip clubs to built in every city and suburb? Well no because the negative social consequences far outweigh any potential monetary benefits. Some things in life are more important than just money, believe it or not.

with golf courses the problem is they are grossly inefficient uses of land and water resources, are toxic and environmentally destructive, cause cancer in people who work and play on them, etc. In other words their problems far exceeds their benefits.
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Old 04-04-2013, 08:54 PM
 
Location: North by Northwest
7,442 posts, read 9,893,589 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cisco kid View Post
I agree about that. Casinos and strip clubs bring in a lot of money, probably a lot more than golf courses do. Does that mean we should allow casinos and strip clubs to built in every city and suburb? Well no because the negative social consequences far outweigh any potential monetary benefits. Some things in life are more important than just money, believe it or not.

with golf courses the problem is they are grossly inefficient uses of land and water resources, are toxic and environmentally destructive, cause cancer in people who work and play on them, etc. In other words their problems far exceeds their benefits.
I love your "willfully ignorant" shtick. If I had a dollar for all the everyday activities that are infinitely more linked to cancer than golf...

Why don't we shift the discussion to something that's actually an issue--namely the environmental impact and water use implications. Golf courses certainly do require a lot of water, and I know that out West (where I assume you're posting from) rain is not as plentiful and there are fewer usable freshwater resources. The amount of water a course outside Los Angeles, much less Phoenix, requires to stay green is probably astounding. In the Northeast and Midwest, where water is plentiful, however, the (significantly lower) amount golf courses use is pretty much a drop in the bucket. In short, water is an issue in some, but most definitely not all, parts of the country.

The environmental impact is nothing to sneeze at either. However, many golf courses are starting to "go green"--IE, golf and eco-friendliness need not be mutually exclusive:

http://www.linksmagazine.com/golf_co...-courses-intro

It's all a question of balance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HandsUpThumbsDown View Post
Or an outsized number of them relative to the city population continue to be funded by my property taxes.
I'm not so sure about that. There have been a number of course closings in recent years, and more courses will probably shut their doors, even as the number of golfers is starting to rebound.

Last edited by ElijahAstin; 04-04-2013 at 09:12 PM..
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Old 04-04-2013, 08:58 PM
 
24,503 posts, read 35,475,857 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cisco kid View Post
I agree about that. Casinos and strip clubs bring in a lot of money, probably a lot more money than golf courses do.
Casinos and Strip clubs likely have more revenue than golf courses. But golf courses are used as venues for huge fundraising events for charity and political campaigns. A single golfing event can bring in millions of dollars for autism research and veteran support.
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Old 04-04-2013, 09:56 PM
 
4,023 posts, read 3,269,945 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenWood View Post
I

Why don't we shift the discussion to something that's actually an issue--namely the environmental impact and water use implications. Golf courses certainly do require a lot of water, and I know that out West (where I assume you're posting from) rain is not as plentiful and there are fewer usable freshwater resources. The amount of water a course outside Los Angeles, much less Phoenix, requires to stay green is probably astounding. In the Northeast and Midwest, where water is plentiful, however, the (significantly lower) amount golf courses use is pretty much a drop in the bucket. In short, water is an issue in some, but most definitely not all, parts of the country.
Its not just one or two states experiencing water shortages. Half the states in the continental US experienced record drought conditions in 2012. So we might be wise to start conserving what dwindling freshwater supplies we have left instead of squandering it like there's no tomorrow on such things as golf courses which by their nature are incredibly resource-intensive and wasteful.



2012-13 North American Drought -Wikipedia

The 2012-2013 North American Drought is an expansion of the 2010–2012 Southern United States drought which began in the spring of 2012, when the lack of snow in the United States caused very little meltwater to absorb into the soil. The drought includes most of the US, parts of Mexico, and central and Eastern Canada. It currently covers 80% of the contiguous United States with at least abnormally dry (D0) conditions. Out of that 80%, 62% is designated as at least moderate drought (D1) conditions. It is affecting a similarly large area as droughts in the 1930s and 1950s but it has not yet been in place as long.

The drought has inflicted, and is expected to continue to inflict, catastrophic economic ramifications for the affected states, so far costing more than $35 billion in the Midwest. As for the whole US, the drought is predicted to reduce the gross domestic product by 0.5-1%, equating to a loss of $75 to $150 billion. It has exceeded, in most measures, the 1988-1989 North American drought, the most recent comparable drought, and is on track to exceed that drought as the costliest natural disaster in US history.
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Old 04-04-2013, 10:02 PM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,586 posts, read 10,783,334 times
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Growing up in natural meadows where the grass and trees were so green...I really appreciated nature. First time I saw a golf course - my brother and I laughed at the idiots wacking a little white ball around...We would yell out "are you killing dew worms with that club?" - was never big on golf.

There were a few kettle lakes in my area as a kid. They were spring fed. One industrialist decided to build a huge golf course. If the summer was dry they would pump out millions of gallons of water out of the ground to water the course. I remember one little lake being sucked dry as the water table dropped. It turned a nice lake into a small swam.

Of course they are a waste of space. BUT there is one thing that can be said for older courses...The ones that have been around for 70 years...The mature trees..the view..they are gorgeous. Still only a few select people will enjoy taking a walk and smacking a ball.
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Old 04-04-2013, 10:03 PM
 
Location: North by Northwest
7,442 posts, read 9,893,589 times
Reputation: 4691
Quote:
Originally Posted by cisco kid View Post
Its not just one or two states experiencing water shortages. Half the states in the continental US experienced record drought conditions in 2012. So we might be wise to start conserving what dwindling freshwater supplies we have left instead of squandering it like there's no tomorrow on such things as golf courses which by their nature are incredibly resource-intensive and wasteful.



2012-13 North American Drought -Wikipedia

The 2012-2013 North American Drought is an expansion of the 2010–2012 Southern United States drought which began in the spring of 2012, when the lack of snow in the United States caused very little meltwater to absorb into the soil. The drought includes most of the US, parts of Mexico, and central and Eastern Canada. It currently covers 80% of the contiguous United States with at least abnormally dry (D0) conditions. Out of that 80%, 62% is designated as at least moderate drought (D1) conditions. It is affecting a similarly large area as droughts in the 1930s and 1950s but it has not yet been in place as long.

The drought has inflicted, and is expected to continue to inflict, catastrophic economic ramifications for the affected states, so far costing more than $35 billion in the Midwest. As for the whole US, the drought is predicted to reduce the gross domestic product by 0.5-1%, equating to a loss of $75 to $150 billion. It has exceeded, in most measures, the 1988-1989 North American drought, the most recent comparable drought, and is on track to exceed that drought as the costliest natural disaster in US history.
I didn't quite mean to imply that water was limitless in most of the country. However, a golf course operating near Harrisburg, PA, is nowhere near as environmentally damaging as one outside Phoenix, AZ, or even Sacramento, CA. As far as long-term sustainability goes, far more courses west of the Rockies will have to close than in the rest of the United States. Maybe a cap-and-trade style system is in order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleg Bach View Post
Still only a few select people will enjoy taking a walk and smacking a ball.
Wrong. There are over 25 million golfers in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleg Bach View Post
Another word regarding courses. The ones that I hate are the golf courses that are built around new subdivisions and having the course there is a selling point for home owners. These newer courses are not attractive and remind me of a half baked attempt at posh.
I agree with this, actually. I would personally never want to live in a golf course community--at least not in a single family home. An apartment or townhouse, maybe.
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Old 04-04-2013, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,586 posts, read 10,783,334 times
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Another word regarding courses. The ones that I hate are the golf courses that are built around new subdivisions and having the course there is a selling point for home owners. These newer courses are not attractive and remind me of a half baked attempt at posh.
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Old 04-04-2013, 10:07 PM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,586 posts, read 10,783,334 times
Reputation: 9293
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenWood View Post
I didn't quite mean to imply that water was limitless in most of the country. However, a golf course operating near Harrisburg, PA, is nowhere near as environmentally damaging as one outside Phoenix, AZ, or even Sacramento, CA. As far as long-term sustainability goes, far more courses west of the Rockies will have to close than in the rest of the United States. Maybe a cap-and-trade style system is in order.


Wrong. There are over 25 million golfers in the US.
This dryness is not just a Californian event. Just north of Toronto where I grew up the soil was rich and moist. That was 25 years ago. We could set a spade into the soil and gather up dew worms for fishing. Now you can dig down a foot during summer and the soil is powder dry. There is less and less moisture in the ground every where I have noticed. It's not a good thing.
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Old 04-04-2013, 10:43 PM
 
4,023 posts, read 3,269,945 times
Reputation: 2924
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleg Bach View Post
Another word regarding courses. The ones that I hate are the golf courses that are built around new subdivisions and having the course there is a selling point for home owners. These newer courses are not attractive and remind me of a half baked attempt at posh.
Yeah who wants to live near a golf course anyway? I sure don't. A golf course probably does more to lower the value of your home than raises it. That's because most people do not play golf. Relatively very few people play golf...but almost everyone in the world enjoys going to a park. So a well-designed public park does far more to boost surrounding real estate prices than a golf course does. You certainly can't take your family for a picnic or a barbecue on the weekend at a golf course; so they are not family friendly or kid friendly at all. Its really sad how utterly useless and pathetic they are.
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