U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
View Poll Results: Which region do you prefer when it comes to rail service?
Chicagoland(Chicago) 22 66.67%
Delaware Valley(Philadlephia) 10 30.30%
Tie/Can't decide 1 3.03%
Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-27-2013, 01:39 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,990 posts, read 41,998,698 times
Reputation: 14810

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Maybe. But I also suspect that ridership may be higher in Boston because it has more Park and Rides.
I don't think so. The green line has almost no park and rides and it gets much higher ridership than Philly's subway-surface trolleys. The portions of the red and orange lines with the most ridership tend to be sections without park and rides (the Red line in Cambridge gets more ridership than the Quincy branch with park and rides, for example). This link quotes the Boston subway as having 14,600 parking spots; nowhere near enough to explain Boston's higher ridership (assuming 1.5 riders/ parking space that's a max of about 42,000 more riders I doubled it because a rider making a round trip counts twice for ridership).

In general, park and rides rarely generate very high transit ridership, but that's another thread topic.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-27-2013, 01:50 PM
 
Location: The City
22,331 posts, read 32,176,306 times
Reputation: 7739
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
I don't think so. The green line has almost no park and rides and it gets much higher ridership than Philly's subway-surface trolleys. The portions of the red and orange lines with the most ridership tend to be sections without park and rides (the Red line in Cambridge gets more ridership than the Quincy branch with park and rides, for example). This link quotes the Boston subway as having 14,600 parking spots; nowhere near enough to explain Boston's higher ridership (assuming 1.5 riders/ parking space that's a max of about 42,000 more riders I doubled it because a rider making a round trip counts twice for ridership).

In general, park and rides rarely generate very high transit ridership, but that's another thread topic.

Well where did you ride it at 5PM and in which direction

Boston Light Rail is like 2.5 times the ridership of Philly's I believe

The Green lines are superior in a few fashions from my perspective
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-27-2013, 01:51 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,990 posts, read 41,998,698 times
Reputation: 14810
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
Well where did you ride it at 5PM and in which direction
2nd St (Market Line) to 30th street then switched to the #47 streetcar westbound.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-27-2013, 02:05 PM
 
Location: The City
22,331 posts, read 32,176,306 times
Reputation: 7739
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
2nd St (Market Line) to 30th street then switched to the #47 streetcar westbound.
Ahh well the MFL line is the highest ridership heavy rail line. Would expect it to have had more people by 15th but having said the HR rail lines (BSL, MFL, Patco) all have excess capacity

That said on Heavy rail the ridership per mile of Heavy rail on par with Boston for Septa

The Green lines are about 3-4K less ridership per mile but also remember even the triple car green line trains in Boston have significantly less capacity per train when compared to 6 car HR line for Septa or Boston HR

The Light Rail trolly lines never seem totally full to me but never empty but never the rush I have seen on the green line In Boston that can be pretty compressed. Worse gogint to a Sox game (which is worse then the Phillies or Eagles crush on the BSL)

I think Philly could do more with the trolly lines though

But to your earlier point, add another 100K jobs in UCity and DT and that would change

Too many jobs in the relative in the burbs here
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-27-2013, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,258,197 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
I don't think so. The green line has almost no park and rides and it gets much higher ridership than Philly's subway-surface trolleys.
Actually, the Park and Rides get fairly decent ridership. Forest Hills has a ridership that's roughly the equivalent of Kendall Square's.

http://www.mbta.com/uploadedfiles/do...ook%202010.pdf

I think the biggest difference is that Philadelphia's system is pretty much confined strictly to the city limits and serves a much poorer population--a population that's not as likely to put on a shirt and tie and head down to Market West.

According to the thread posted below, the employment figures for the CBDs are not too different. So I don't think this really explains it.

Cities: Information on Central Business Districts (Employment Population, Transit Detail, Land Area, & Density)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-27-2013, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,258,197 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
Too many jobs in the relative in the burbs here
There are a lot of jobs in suburban Boston also (though the percentage of the workforce is slightly higher in Boston (11.1%) compared to Philadelphia (9.4%).

But it's interesting to look at the "Creative Class" maps that munchitup posted in another thread. The Philadelphia subway serves a small blob of purple (Creatives) in Center City. The people living in CC are more inclined to walk to work than ride a train, however. The other "creative" areas of the city (where the professional classes who likely work in Center City reside) are not served by the subway. The subway runs through a sea of red, which denotes "Service Class" areas in Florida's map. And many of these areas are simply depressed.

Class-Divided Cities: Philadelphia Edition - Richard Florida - The Atlantic Cities

The T, on the other hand, runs through a lot more purple.

Class-Divided Cities: Boston Edition - Richard Florida - The Atlantic Cities
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-27-2013, 02:30 PM
 
Location: The City
22,331 posts, read 32,176,306 times
Reputation: 7739
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
There are a lot of jobs in suburban Boston also (though the percentage of the workforce is slightly higher in Boston (11.1%) compared to Philadelphia (9.4%).

But it's interesting to look at the "Creative Class" maps that munchitup posted in another thread. The Philadelphia subway serves a small blob of purple (Creatives) in Center City. The people living in CC are more inclined to walk to work than ride a train, however. The other "creative" areas of the city (where the professional classes who likely work in Center City reside) are not served by the subway. The subway runs through a sea of red, which denotes "Service Class" areas in Florida's map. And many of these areas are simply depressed.

Class-Divided Cities: Philadelphia Edition - Richard Florida - The Atlantic Cities

The T, on the other hand, runs through a lot more purple.

Class-Divided Cities: Boston Edition - Richard Florida - The Atlantic Cities

This makes sense as well. It also makes for less users commuting at rush. Start/Stop times of service jobs are less consistent.

If you looked at ridership on RR lines that serve purple areas. Lets say the Main Line and CH East/West I would imaging the rush hour ridership is significantly higher than the off hours whereas the HR lines are more consistently with volume without a rush crush. You are also right in that many in CC and the next set of nabes walk to work

Good news for Philly in one sense is the purple is expanding but not terribly fast

It would be interesting to see a red/purple map of DC from 30 years ago to today - probably a very dramtic shift
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-27-2013, 02:32 PM
 
Location: The City
22,331 posts, read 32,176,306 times
Reputation: 7739
On this topic though Chicago> Philadelphia
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-27-2013, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,258,197 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
This makes sense as well. It also makes for less users commuting at rush. Start/Stop times of service jobs are less consistent.
When you really think about it, there are few places that the average resident of Center City or tourist would need or want to take the train to.

You could take the subway from CC to UPenn. But it's close enough to walk. And a lot of people do.

You can't take the train to the Art Museum.

Can't take the subway to the airport.

Can't take it to Mount Airy, Manayunk, Chestnut Hill or Roxborough.

Can't take it to the Navy Yard.

That's quite a few key misses. That's why I rarely ever find myself on Septa. In Boston, on the other hand, the T is actually practical for getting to and from places you'd want and need to go to: Logan, the Convention Center, Financial District, Back Bay, Fenway, MGH, Cambridge, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
If you looked at ridership on RR lines that serve purple areas. Lets say the Main Line and CH East/West I would imaging the rush hour ridership is significantly higher than the off hours whereas the HR lines are more consistently with volume without a rush crush. You are also right in that many in CC and the next set of nabes walk to work
If you could swerve the BSL over to the left and route it through Fairmount and the Northwest, I think ridership would likely improve, even if the density of those areas is lower. You'd also see much more rapid gentrification in Germantown. And if you could extend it to the airport, I think ridership would also get a good bump.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
Good news for Philly in one sense is the purple is expanding but not terribly fast
Yeah, that will help. But for now, there are still only a handful of stations I'd really ever find myself getting off at. I think I've gotten off at every single stop on the DC Metro whereas I've been to...maybe...four stops total on Septa. Once I'm in Center City, there's really no point in using transit because everything is pretty much within walking distance. And then the subway doesn't hit Germantown, so I couldn't take it home even if I wanted to.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-27-2013, 02:54 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,990 posts, read 41,998,698 times
Reputation: 14810
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
On this topic though Chicago> Philadelphia
and connecting with center city employment, Chicago definitely has more employment concentrated downtown than Philly, which explains part of its higher rail usage.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top