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Old 04-08-2013, 08:31 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,011 posts, read 102,621,396 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HandsUpThumbsDown View Post
OK, Katiana. You don't have the solutions, but you know what is being tried is wrong, and you don't care to learn any more about schools in places with problems you don't understand, because you already know. We will agree to disagree, and I will move on

PS I'm not a huge fan of the Wire, but the schools season was pretty accurate. The series was not fantasy, it was written and acted by people who have lived these lives. If you prefer non fiction (still HBO) watch Hard Times at Douglass High.
That's not moving on; that's saying I'm wrong about everything. I would bet my savings that I know more about education issues than you do, and I don't get my information from fictional TV dramas. You didn't apologize for a single negative thing you said about me, you didn't apologize for totally mischaracterizing my position on suburban schools, which I don't understand how you would know as I did not state in any event, as it was not the topic of the discussion.

I am quite familiar with what was going on in PA in the 60s/70s. I was there, living it. By the late 60s, I was old enough to know what was happening. I was a Pitt when MLK was shot. It was a freaky experience. We were told to move our beds away from the windows because of suspected snipers in the area near the university. I was at Pitt when the dorms were used for people going to DC for the poor people's march. However, there was no such overt segregation as there was in the south.
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:42 PM
 
1,356 posts, read 1,636,441 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nybbler View Post
That is correct, they do not. Unless you also want to give the rich suburban districts _authority_ over the city districts... but I know that won't fly. Instead "responsibility" comes down to "hand over the money" and the money gets thrown down a rathole.
Why not? Katiana implicitly raised an interesting point: if you want to see middle income people invest in cities then inner city schools to need improve and it's not really the schools that causes the initial problem. The environment in which the school is surrounded in creates an sitation where kids have discipline problems, the administration is poorly run, and the good teachers run for the burbs while teachers are brought in with low qualifications to teach while the school at a whole remains short of staff. I find it interesting that children who are bused into other districts from the inner city do better. Same for children who live in neighborhoods adjacent to gentrifying ones. Just important as increasing achievement in schools is the fact that the inner city vs suburban school zoning unintentionally leads to de facto segregation in schools and schools lacking in resources because they rely on property taxes for a lot of their funding.


While we're on the same topic, I find it a little odd that public schools in NW DC are starting to seen as successes or getting better when what's really happening is that a lot of lower income people are getting priced and high income people are moving in to "improve" the schools. Nevertheless, it's leading to a chain reaction where people feel comfortable moving into the city and raising kids there.
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:44 PM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 11,105,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
That's not moving on; that's saying I'm wrong about everything. I would bet my savings that I know more about education issues than you do, and I don't get my information from fictional TV dramas. You didn't apologize for a single negative thing you said about me, you didn't apologize for totally mischaracterizing my position on suburban schools, which I don't understand how you would know as I did not state in any event, as it was not the topic of the discussion.
Are you implying that you know more about education in a post industrial city with 200 murders per year than me? That would be an unwise bet. Let's just not make it.

You said you weren't into gerrymandering school districts. That's where I got your position on suburban schools. I'm not sure what else you could have meant, but you didn't expound, so.

My apologies if I offended or mischaracterized you. There are few topics I'm more passionate about than education in cities like mine. It isn't just you; most of the country either doesn't get it or doesn't care.
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:46 PM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,990 posts, read 41,989,613 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Octa View Post
Why not? Katiana implicitly raised an interesting point: if you want to see middle income people invest in cities then inner city schools to need improve and it's not really the schools that causes the initial problem.
And what are suburban residents supposed to feel obligated to do? Other than funding inequalities [DC schools are funded similar to suburban ones, from what I read], is there any more they should do? Do they want their schools dragged down with the suburban schools?


Quote:
While we're on the same topic, I find it a little odd that public schools in NW DC are starting to seen as successes or getting better when what's really happening is that a lot of lower income people are getting priced and high income people are moving in to "improve" the schools. Nevertheless, it's leading to a chain reaction where people feel comfortable moving into the city and raising kids there.
Perhaps that is a success. The city is now a more attractive place to live, and the schools are now better. A way urban planners can create good schools?
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Ypsilanti
389 posts, read 400,717 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
As to why many posters don't bother mention schools, I'd guess most if not almost all are well aware that city schools are a huge problem for cities. But the forum is a forum for things people like to talk about, people talk about things that interest them. I don't have a particular interest in education, I know little about what makes a good school. I've said about as much I can say on all threads we've had about schools. I'm not anti-intellectual, I'd be happy to discuss say, math, science or history depending how in-depth it is. But education? Not really. So I've stopped adding much.

As urban planners in real life, urban planners aren't educators. From wikipedia urban planning is:

Urban planning (urban, city, and town planning) is a technical and political process concerned with the control of the use of land and design of the urban environment, including transportation networks, to guide and ensure the orderly development of settlements and communities.

Not really anything connected with education. It would make no sense for a city to hire an urban planner to fix its school system. They should be aware of the problems, but it's out of their job description.



I'm not sure being separate entities is positive or negative. As an aside, on Long Island, school districts are almost always separate entities from the municipal government while in New York City, the school district is controlled directly by the city government.



One big difference between today and back then is high school graduation rates. A high school graduation rate of say, 60% would have been rather good. Today, it would be rather abysmal. An immigrant son in the 1910s could drop out of 10th grade and get a blue collar job. Today, someone dropping out of high school would likely join the ranks of the underclass. It's not just poverty, but various demographic factors partially based on race and class that are an uncomfortable subject. Did the city stop caring about public schools sometime in the last half-century or did something else happen? In New York City, black neighborhoods that have say, 1/3 higher incomes than another heavily Asian neighborhoods have worse schools that said schools in heavily Asian neighborhood. What's going on? And then this old post:



Imagine you're a teacher in this school with riots. How do you handle this situation? Give up? Try your hardest every day? Few if any suburban schools have situations anywhere near this bad. To make this worse, in NYC specifically (dunno about other cities), the newest, least experienced teachers [I'm told teaching at school in a bad neighborhood can be a miserable experience] often get stuck in the worst public schools.

In that situation, she was lucky that the city had some decent schools elsewhere and students were allowed to transfer out to a better school. You can see where this leads... any student who cares leaves these worst-performing city schools. And any teacher will try their hardest not to teach there, leaving only the least experienced and worst teachers.
My cousin in Chicago works as a teacher/principal with trouble kids in Chicago. He was telling me about his first day, he had kids from Cabrini Green in his class, so the first day of class he tells the kids we are going to learn French, one kid yells at him f*** you we ain't learning no f***ing French, my cousin tells him yes you are, then another girl chimes in and says do you know who my daddy is(a lot of those kids have fathers in gangs), so he didn't tell me what he did to the kids, but he had to have whooped them or something to show he didn't care who they daddy was and that they were going to learn. He said by the end of the year the kids were crying and begging him to stay with the school.

I know my cousin well, he can really rally people and set people straight, he lives in a southside Chicago neighborhood nice appartment but seedy areas nearby. Anyways one day we are walking down the street this group of 10 guys dealing out of a house and blasting music, across the street there was an older guy who just wanted some quiet, so my cuz and I walk to the house, he gets some green from them and he tells these guys to quiet down and not to deal in front of the old man. I thought he was crazy but they listened to him.

My cousin wants to change the community, he comes from a family with money and a brother in the NFL making millions, yet he is making a bigger difference than people born and raised in those situations.
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:51 PM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 11,105,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weteath View Post
My cousin in Chicago works as a teacher/principal with trouble kids in Chicago. He was telling me about his first day, he had kids from Cabrini Green in his class, so the first day of class he tells the kids we are going to learn French, one kid yells at him f*** you we ain't learning no f***ing French, my cousin tells him yes you are, then another girl chimes in and says do you know who my daddy is(a lot of those kids have fathers in gangs), so he didn't tell me what he did to the kids, but he had to have whooped them or something to show he didn't care who they daddy was and that they were going to learn. He said by the end of the year the kids were crying and begging him to stay with the school.

I know my cousin well, he can really rally people and set people straight, he lives in a southside Chicago neighborhood nice apparently but seedy areas nearby. Anyways one day we are walking down the street this group of 10 guys dealing out of a house and blasting music, across the street there was an older guy who just wanted some quiet, so my cuz and I walk to the house, he gets some green from them and he tells these guys to quiet down and not to deal in front of the old man. I thought he was crazy but they listened to him.

My cousin wants to change the community, he comes from a family with money and a brother in the NFL making millions, yet he is making a bigger difference than people born and raised in those situations.
Kudos to your cousin and other educators like him.
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:51 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,011 posts, read 102,621,396 times
Reputation: 33075
Quote:
Originally Posted by HandsUpThumbsDown View Post
I'm not advocating for it either, just pointing out that the poster basically took two options to "fix the schools" off the table and identified approximately zero other options.
You accused said poster of a lot of stuff that is not true, and insulted and mocked her.

Charter schools have a very spotty record. Many have failed. That wouldn't, in and of itself, be so bad, b/c they were supposed to be experimental, but some kids' education may have failed as well. I don't know what other option you're talking about.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/02/op...ools.html?_r=0
http://www.city-data.com/forum/28063287-post36.html
Study: On average, charter schools do no better than public schools - CSMonitor.com
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:58 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,011 posts, read 102,621,396 times
Reputation: 33075
Quote:
Originally Posted by HandsUpThumbsDown View Post
Are you implying that you know more about education in a post industrial city with 200 murders per year than me? That would be an unwise bet. Let's just not make it.

You said you weren't into gerrymandering school districts. That's where I got your position on suburban schools. I'm not sure what else you could have meant, but you didn't expound, so.

My apologies if I offended or mischaracterized you. There are few topics I'm more passionate about than education in cities like mine. It isn't just you; most of the country either doesn't get it or doesn't care.
I said I didn't agree with gerrymandering ATTENDANCE areas, in answer to Octa's question. I said nothing about gerrymandering SCHOOL DISTRICTS at all. You need to know that school districts in Colorado are generally large. The largest district in the state, Jefferson County, has 85,000 students in "inner ring" suburbia, general suburbia, a college town (Golden), and several mountain communities, some affluent, some not. The Jeffco suburbs are all over the place economic-wise, from quite low-income areas in Edgewater and Lakewood, to very affluent areas in Evergreen. Jeffco is bigger than DPS. It is the location of Columbine High School.

I'll take your non-apology apology under consideration.
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:00 PM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 11,105,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
You accused said poster of a lot of stuff that is not true, and insulted and mocked her.
I didn't accuse or insult you. I may have taken up a mocking tone. As always, nothing was meant personally. I don't think I really did anything egregious though; I apologized and am seeking to move on. Note I didn't ask for apology from you for you "You don't know squat about Denver" and plenty of other digs. It's an argument. We're passionate from different sides. No grovelling after the fact required, really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Charter schools have a very spotty record. Many have failed. That wouldn't, in and of itself, be so bad, b/c they were supposed to be experimental, but some kids' education may have failed as well.
There are so many aspects of charter schools that aren't shown by standardized testing. Parental involvement, school community support, safety, personal attention ... and because they draw from all areas and income levels, and parental education attainment levels, it is not entirely accurate to base the entire assessment of charter schools on standardized testing. Just as few people would base their opinion of a regular school on standardized testing alone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I don't know what other option you're talking about.
Gerrymandering school districts, of which you expressed your ardent disapproval. You admitted you don't know how to fix schools, but you say schools should fix themselves without Charters or gerrymandering.

What's your personal experience with inner-city charter schools?
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:04 PM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 11,105,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I said I didn't agree with gerrymandering ATTENDANCE areas, in answer to Octa's question. I said nothing about gerrymandering SCHOOL DISTRICTS at all.
I guess I don't understand the difference. Perhaps it's just different here.
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