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Old 04-11-2013, 01:32 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 17 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
The city govt should certainly be involved. I think the issue is that you seem to assume that the planning dept is the general body for issues of the city govt. Its not. the issues in the school board affect a wide range of city issues - from crime to finances to human services. A rep from the Mayors office is more appropriate.




I would completely agree that transportation and planning depts should be involved in school transportation issues. Thats different from more general "fix the schools" issues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
This. Which I have been trying to say. A city has many different department. The planning board is one of many, it does not deal, or is meant to deal with all city issues. It should be aware of them, but dealing with them is best left to the approriate agency.
Well, you are both wrong about what I think a planning department does. I still think there is a role for "urban planning" itself vis a vis a city's schools. For the most part, there's no involvement at all in cities where the schools are a separate entity from the city govt. The city doesn't know who the movers and shakers are in the school system, and vice versa, except for perhaps the top honcho (mayor, superintendent of schools). And for all cities ignore schools in general, they talk a lot about the schools in their campaigns. They're always saying they're going to do something to "fix" the city schools.

I also take a more global outlook on this than just the employees of the planning department. There are many topics we have discussed on this board that have virtually nothing to do with a city's planning department. Planners seem to concern themselves mostly with zoning and building issues, at least in my city. They don't work on vegetable gardening, or the farmer's market, or attracting retail (only local, of course), or bars, or the cultural amenities of a city, or climate change, or whatever. But we talk about that stuff a lot.

http://www.louisvilleco.gov/Portals/...plngagenda.pdf

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 04-11-2013 at 01:41 PM..
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:40 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Well, you are both wrong about what I think a planning department does. I still think there is a role for "urban planning" itself vis a vis a city's schools.
So what do you think a planning department does?

Quote:
For the most part, there's no involvement at all in cities where the schools are a separate entity from the city govt. The city doesn't know who the movers and shakers are in the school system, and vice versa, except for perhaps the top honcho (mayor, superintendent of schools). And for all cities ignore schools in general, they talk a lot about the schools in their campaigns. They're always saying they're going to do something to "fix" the city schools.
Long Island schools are completely separate from the municipal governments. I thought the opposite was the usual for cities. Anyway, getting the city government more involved in schools is not the same as getting the planning department more involved with schools. The planning department is one part of a city's government.

I don't believe cities actually ignore schools either.
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:41 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post

I also take a more global outlook on this than just the employees of the planning department. There are many topics we have discussed on this board that have virtually nothing to do with a city's planning department.
Yes, not all this forum is based on what the employees of a planning department discuss. But we were discussing whether a city's planning* department should be involved in city schools.

*Unless you were referring to something else by mentioning "urban planners" or "urban planning" but I didn't think you were.
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:45 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 17 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,996 posts, read 102,568,112 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
So what do you think a planning department does?



Long Island schools are completely separate from the municipal governments. I thought the opposite was the usual for cities. Anyway, getting the city government more involved in schools is not the same as getting the planning department more involved with schools. The planning department is one part of a city's government.

I don't believe cities actually ignore schools either.
I posted my suburban city's planning department agenda. It's zoning stuff. I've been to many council meetings where this stuff was discussed as well. I think this thread devolved into discussing planning departments, which really don't do much of any of the stuff we discuss on this board, b/c people wanted to come up with a reason why the cities aren't interested in the schools.

AFAIK, in most cities (you have said it's different in NYC) the schools are a separate organization from the city government.

I do think the cities and the schools should be involved in conversation with each other. I have been mocked and ridiculed for saying so, thank you very much. I don't particularly care if it comes from the planning dept or somewhere else.
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:51 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I posted my suburban city's planning department agenda. It's zoning stuff. I've been to many council meetings where this stuff was discussed as well. I think this thread devolved into discussing planning departments, which really don't do much of any of the stuff we discuss on this board, b/c people wanted to come up with a reason why the cities aren't interested in the schools.


I do think the cities and the schools should be involved in conversation with each other. I have been mocked and ridiculed for saying so, thank you very much.
Of course, cities should be interested in schools! You mentioned real-life urban planners, I thought we were discussing planning departments the entire time. I don't think planning departments should be invovled with schools.

Quote:
I don't particularly care if it comes from the planning dept or somewhere else.
I thought you did. That was what I thought the argument were about, I'm rather frustrated. I feel like you're changing your argument from earlier. If meant to say cities should be more invovlved with schools, you should have city government rather than urban planners — not the same thing.

Quote:
AFAIK, in most cities (you have said it's different in NYC) the schools are a separate organization from the city government.
I never knew that [it's a bad assumption that posters are familiar with the norm of most cities], I thought in suburbs schools were separate. Can you post some details?

Neither did I think cities don't get involved with schools.
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,231,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
IIRC, studies have shown SAT test prep is essentially useless for black and white students, giving them only around an additional 2 points. Asians and Latinos do have statistically significant improvements after taking prep courses, but the boost may entirely be due to those with somewhat limited language skills sharpening their verbal/writing results.
There's a difference between taking a class and actually sitting down for hours at a time to work on test prep. If you have parents who force you to focus on test taking skills at an early age, as my parents did, then you become appreciably better at test taking (surprise). It's about developing good test taking skills out of the gate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
This goes back to the hypothesis of stereotype threat. Studies have shown you can make black people do worse on standardized tests merely by making them check off their race before starting (where it has no effect for whites). You can also make women score worse on math assessment tests the same way. They've also tested white students, given them identical tests, but told them either it was a general assessment test or meant to compare white/Asian math performance. In the latter case, white students did significantly worse.

Put simply, we internalize stereotypes on a subconscious level. Black students knowing that as blacks they are "supposed" to do worse on tests causes some combination of factors (brain freeze, dismissing hard questions and moving on, etc) which makes their performance not accurately reflect their actual abilities.
There may be some truth to this. But I think a bigger factor is the fact that many black students head into the exam woefully unprepared.
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:59 PM
 
743 posts, read 1,103,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
AFAIK, in most cities (you have said it's different in NYC) the schools are a separate organization from the city government.

I do think the cities and the schools should be involved in conversation with each other. I have been mocked and ridiculed for saying so, thank you very much. I don't particularly care if it comes from the planning dept or somewhere else.
The boundaries of most urban school districts and most urban municipalities do not match. The few exceptions are where you have seen "mayoral takeovers" of schools-- NYC, Chicago, DC. Most cities though are either under a county school system or have ancient farm-to-market-road school boundaries.
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Old 04-11-2013, 02:02 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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"For the most part, there's no involvement at all in cities where the schools are a separate entity from the city govt. The city doesn't know who the movers and shakers are in the school system, and vice versa, except for perhaps the top honcho (mayor, superintendent of schools). And for all cities ignore schools in general, they talk a lot about the schools in their campaigns. They're always saying they're going to do something to "fix" the city schools. "


In DC, the chancellor of the school system is appointed by the mayor. In PG county MD that will soon be the case, based on a new law. here in FFX county the School Board still appts the superintendent, but I can tell you based on personal knowledge that the school board members and the county Board of supervisors know each other, and are familiar with each others issues.


" also take a more global outlook on this than just the employees of the planning department. There are many topics we have discussed on this board that have virtually nothing to do with a city's planning department. Planners seem to concern themselves mostly with zoning and building issues, at least in my city. They don't work on vegetable gardening, or the farmer's market, or attracting retail (only local, of course), or bars, or the cultural amenities of a city, or climate change, or whatever. But we talk about that stuff a lot."

The location and amount of retail is certainly within the purview of planning - as is the location of schools and similar facilities. HOW a retailer is run, is not. Farmers markets are unique use that may not fit into standard retail zones. Climate change is relevant to planning, because urban planning so strongly impacts it - but thats about the impacts of urban planning. If you want to discuss how urban planning decisions have EFFECTS on schools, I would say thats completely on topic. A big topic like that is when planners allow too much housing and neglect impacts on school crowding - sometimes because they underestimate how much new housing will draw families, and not just the childless.

I don't recall discussions of vegetable gardening - I suppose that could be ontopic if its a discussion of how SFHs with gardens have sustainability advantages over multifamily. if its about HOW to improve vegetable gardens, Id say its off topic.
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Old 04-11-2013, 02:03 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 17 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,996 posts, read 102,568,112 times
Reputation: 33059
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Of course, cities should be interested in schools! You mentioned real-life urban planners, I think we were discussing planning departments the entire time. I don't think planning departments should be invovled with schools.



I thought you did. That was what I thought the argument were about, I'm rather frustrated. I feel like you're changing your argument from earlier.



I never knew that [it's a bad assumption that posters are familiar with the norm of most cities], I thought in suburbs schools were separate. Can you post some details?

Neither did I think cities don't get involved with schools.
I meant urban planners in a more global sense, the way it seems to be on this board. I'd have to look it up separately for each city, since I did a search about "are public schools part of city government" and did not get the answer to my question. I did, however, find this link, talking about what I've been talking about.
Local Governments and Schools: A Community-Oriented Approach | icma.org

Chicago Public Schools are a separate organization from the Chicago city govt.
https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...flowchart.html

Ditto, Denver:
http://www.dpsk12.org/pdf/GeneralDis...art5-16-12.pdf

Pittsburgh (Couldn't find their organizational chart):
Pittsburgh Public Schools - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As you can see, PPS takes in more than Pittsburgh. Such is the case in many districts.
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Old 04-11-2013, 02:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
As you can see, PPS takes in more than Pittsburgh. Such is the case in many districts.
Do you think Pittsburg city planners should make decisions for Mount Oliver?
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