U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-13-2013, 05:54 AM
 
Location: Between Heaven And Hell.
11,240 posts, read 7,513,151 times
Reputation: 14489

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by HandsUpThumbsDown View Post
I'm wondering how enforcement is a free market solution. Lets pay some government employee to tell us "bad, stop!"?

Anyway, there is no enforcement of traffic law in this city. One could run 26 red lights while shooting out the window and as long as nobody was hit, the lazy cops wouldn't even put down their coffee to get on the radio.

I'm also curious about how mini roundabout would slow traffic. I'd think it would speed it up, as a complete stop is no longer necessary.

As for speed bumps, I'm no fan. I've looked at some speed tables - longer rise, less harsh - seem to have the same effect without the jarring effects.

The mini roundabout only slows traffic a bit, by creating an uncertainty as to who is going to have the right of way at any given time, but only in low visibility areas, if all is clear, quite often you just drive over them. Yes, quite often the traffic will speed up, but that's not always a bad thing. Many people have trouble grasping rights of way at mini roundabouts, and roundabouts, I know of a few that people just drive over, or pull out onto, without looking, ignoring all the rules of the road.

As for the speed bumps, those you describe would be better, I think they should be designed for the speed limit they are to keep. Still, some suspension layouts can make speed bumps redundant, or if the person driving the car doesn't care about damaging it, (as is the case when they have stolen it).

I don't know about the free market solution.

Last edited by BECLAZONE; 04-13-2013 at 06:08 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-13-2013, 06:46 AM
 
4,023 posts, read 3,267,452 times
Reputation: 2924
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaaBoom View Post
Problems Associated With Traffic Calming

A 35% and 100% increase in accidents, yet they stay in place anyway. The people who advocate this stuff, already have their minds made up, that is good, and they are going force it on everyone whether it actually works or not. This is why I don't even trust their studies. Simple news searches will find plenty of accidents cause by any type of traffic calming device. I'm sure in some cases traffic calming does what it is intended to do. But in most cases its just a wast of money, and in many cases its even counterproductive. It's just a feel good program, to make people think that something is being done to make the roads safer.



The IIHS disagrees with you.


Roundabout Benefits

Improve safety

Studies have shown that roundabouts are safer than traditional stop sign or signal-controlled intersections.

Roundabouts reduced injury crashes by 75 percent at intersections where stop signs or signals were previously used for traffic control, according to a study by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS). Studies by the IIHS and Federal Highway Administration have shown that roundabouts typically achieve:
  • A 37 percent reduction in overall collisions
  • A 75 percent reduction in injury collisions
  • A 90 percent reduction in fatality collisions
  • A 40 percent reduction in pedestrian collisions




WSDOT - Roundabout Benefits


Quote:
Originally Posted by BECLAZONE View Post
How long do you want to wait for a fire engine, an ambulance, or the police?
Better to prevent, as much as possible, the need for ambulances in the first place. As shown above, roundabouts do that by preventing 75 to 90% of vehicle collisions that result in serious or fatal injuries, from happening in the first place--compared to conventional signaled intersections. That's because all vehicles are forced to slow drastically before entering the roundabout. Whereas the conventional signaled intersection allows you to drive through it at full speed which is where the deadliest kind of accident --the high-speed kind-- takes place.

A roundabout probably has negligible effects on the speed of emergency vehicles anyway. For example an ambulance has to slow drastically before it makes a turn, whether it is going through a conventional signaled intersection or a roundabout. Unless it is being driven by a drunk or crazy driver it can't just take the turn at full speed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-13-2013, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Between Heaven And Hell.
11,240 posts, read 7,513,151 times
Reputation: 14489
Quote:
Originally Posted by cisco kid View Post
Better to prevent, as much as possible, the need for ambulances in the first place. As shown above, roundabouts do that by preventing 75 to 90% of vehicle collisions that result in serious or fatal injuries, from happening in the first place--compared to conventional signaled intersections. That's because all vehicles are forced to slow drastically before entering the roundabout. Whereas the conventional signaled intersection allows you to drive through it at full speed which is where the deadliest kind of accident --the high-speed kind-- takes place.

A roundabout probably has negligible effects on the speed of emergency vehicles anyway. For example an ambulance has to slow drastically before it makes a turn, whether it is going through a conventional signaled intersection or a roundabout. Unless it is being driven by a drunk or crazy driver it can't just take the turn at full speed.
I wasn't thinking about road accidents, I was thinking of emergencies totally unrelated to roads.

This side of the pond, we have mini roundabouts put in quite unnecessarily, quite often for a quiet side road. Often ambulances are going straight on, also, I don't know if you've looked at my previous posts in this thread, but in one of them, you can see other traffic calming measures, that we have here, and those really are no good.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-13-2013, 09:00 AM
 
3,492 posts, read 4,958,642 times
Reputation: 5383
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I think on-street parking has a traffic calming effect. I tend to drive slower when there's a risk of sideswiping a car.

I also think the addition of a bike lane in between the curb and parked cars is a good way to shrink a street, make it more pedestrian friendly, and also give some priority to an alternative mode of transportation. This works well, imo, on streets with street parking that still feel too wide. This may not be practical in all cases, but it's something I think works well to slow down traffic.

Washington, DC - Google Maps
I'd suggest some of the opposite things, but for the opposite reasons. I agree with Bajan that the addition of a bike lane will shrink the street, but I find that only makes it harder to drive. I haven't driven on a street that feels too wide. I don't want to drive slower, but I would be happy to make the present speed safer. I'm not a maniac, I actually follow all posted speed limits. I don't want to have to go below the speed limit on the basis of danger that I will strike a car or a person. I'd rather have that danger removed.

What I suggest:
Wider streets -- so people aren't scared of hitting people or things. I feel "calm" when I can drive very safely.
Extra lanes where possible: I don't want to be stuck dealing with a bad driver. Two lanes means I can easily pull over and let him pass.
Traffic circles: They are kind of fun, they remind you to be alert, and they are often faster than a stop sign. After all, few of us want to waste our life sitting at a stop sign.

What I abhor:
Speed bumps: These are the stupidest idea possible. The goal is to slow down traffic. What it does is make people angry. If they go fast, it damages their car. However, the bad drivers I know simply go air born off speed bumps. They damage their car and drive recklessly. It's a terrible combination. If the goal is to slow down traffic, another form needs to be used. The ideal solution would be to make fast driving safer by providing a bypass. If you don't want them going fast through the neighborhood, offer them a way to avoid the neighborhood. If the offenders live in the neighborhood, you may need peer pressure as a tool.

I like having parking on the side of the street, but it should be kept away from the areas where children are most likely to cross the road. I slow down and go about 10 mph in those areas because I never know when a child will jump out. However, that is the exception. The drivers that you have to worry about in the first place are the ones that just speed with a complete disregard for human life.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-13-2013, 12:03 PM
 
4,023 posts, read 3,267,452 times
Reputation: 2924
Quote:
Originally Posted by HandsUpThumbsDown View Post
I'm also curious about how mini roundabout would slow traffic. I'd think it would speed it up, as a complete stop is no longer necessary.
I think these 'mini' roundabouts are kinda pointless. Roundabouts work best for high volume intersections where two busy arterials intersect. They don't do you much good on smaller collector and residential streets like the one in your OP where the same traffic calming result can be achieved with simple stop signs.

You can't just stick a little island in the middle of a conventional intersection and call it a roundabout. These faux roundabouts are technically known as traffic circles--to distinguish them from actual roundabouts. Traffic circles don't give you the safety benefits of roundabouts. People tend to use the terms interchangeably but there are some important differences.

------------------------


This is a traffic circle/'mini' roundabout--or a tacked-on faux roundabout as I would describe it. The two streets still intersect at a hard right angle, which causes vehicles to enter the 'circle' very abruptly. And the safety benefits of roundabouts are largely negated. The little tacked-on island in the center doesn't change that dynamic.



Compared to the actual roundabout below: the two streets intersect in a very smooth circular pattern. There are no harsh right angles allowing traffic to enter and exit gracefully, flowing through the intersection in a very smooth and graceful manner.


Roundabouts (the real ones) work great once built but don't make sense unless you are building the roads and intersection from scratch because trying to convert an existing conventional intersection into an actual roundabout would be cost prohibitive in most cases. It's a lot cheaper to do it from scratch. You would have to totally tear out the existing intersection, tear up and remove existing traffic lights if any, etc. a very complex and involved operation where the streets are totally and radically reshaped. Though it might be worth for improving certain intersections if your budget allows for it. Roundabouts also provide a visual and aesthetic enhancement. They look a lot nicer with their flowing round shape and landscaped center median. And are cheaper to maintain as they eliminate the complexity and expense of traffic lights.

For introducing traffic calming into existing an existing intersection, something like curb extensions or raised crosswalks, etc. makes more financial sense than roundabouts as these are relatively simple and inexpensive to add onto existing infrastructure.

Traffic Diverter/Curb Extensions

Last edited by cisco kid; 04-13-2013 at 12:12 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-13-2013, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
7,142 posts, read 8,884,098 times
Reputation: 7732
Quote:
Originally Posted by cisco kid View Post
The IIHS disagrees with you.


Roundabout Benefits

Improve safety

Studies have shown that roundabouts are safer than traditional stop sign or signal-controlled intersections.

Roundabouts reduced injury crashes by 75 percent at intersections where stop signs or signals were previously used for traffic control, according to a study by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS). Studies by the IIHS and Federal Highway Administration have shown that roundabouts typically achieve:
  • A 37 percent reduction in overall collisions
  • A 75 percent reduction in injury collisions
  • A 90 percent reduction in fatality collisions
  • A 40 percent reduction in pedestrian collisions
First you have to understand that there are two different types of roundabouts. Larger roundabouts, which don't have anything to do with traffic calming, and small roundabouts or traffic circles that do. Large roundabouts are designed to move traffic through an intersection without have to wait at a red light. Small roundabouts are nothing but dangerous traffic hazards placed in the middle of the road in an attempt to slow traffic. Mostly they just **** off and distract motorists.

I don't like either type. Find me one bicycle advocacy group anywhere that supports roundabouts. I don't think you can. Because riding a bike through a roundabout is like a death wish.


Cyclist hit by car at roundabout NSW's Central Coast - YouTube


Roundabout T-Bone Bicycle Accident 5th July 2012 - YouTube


Car does not give way at roundabout 2 April 2011 - YouTube


Car does not give way on roundabout - YouTube


Close call - X134MKP fails to give way at roundabout - YouTube


Cycling Head on Crash with Car, *Contains Blood* - YouTube


Cyclist run over in car crash and near miss on a roundabout - YouTube


Mini roundabout near miss 02082012 - YouTube


Car does not give way to cyclist on roundabout 21 Oct 2011 - YouTube
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-13-2013, 12:51 PM
 
4,023 posts, read 3,267,452 times
Reputation: 2924
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaaBoom View Post
First you have to understand that there are two different types of roundabouts. Larger roundabouts, which don't have anything to do with traffic calming, and small roundabouts or traffic circles that do. Large roundabouts are designed to move traffic through an intersection without have to wait at a red light. Small roundabouts are nothing but dangerous traffic hazards placed in the middle of the road in an attempt to slow traffic. Mostly they just **** off and distract motorists.

I don't like either type. Find me one bicycle advocacy group anywhere that supports roundabouts. I don't think you can. Because riding a bike through a roundabout is like a death wish.

I agree that 'mini roundabouts' that are tacked-on to an existing intersection are rather pointless. The same traffic calming effect can be achieved with simple stop signs. To be effective a true roundabout has to be built like one from the ground up and not just merely tacked on as a half-baked afterthought.

A simple solution for cyclists: Don't ride in the circle with the vehicle traffic. Its safer to ride (or walk) your bike on the crosswalks to get across.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-13-2013, 01:08 PM
 
Location: The City
22,331 posts, read 32,171,331 times
Reputation: 7739
Not sure it is a one size fits all.

They can all work (or not work well) given the specific layout of an intersection
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-13-2013, 02:16 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,068 posts, read 16,090,068 times
Reputation: 12647
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
A lot of people don't even slow down for speed bumps. I have witnessed a few accidents where someone ran over a speed bump too fast, lost control, and then crashed into parked cars. Apparently hitting a speed bump with too much speed can be fatal in some cases.

Driver dies after hitting speed bump, utility pole | khou.com Houston
I applaud when people kill themselves rather than innocents, however. The only way to lose control over a speed bump is to be going way too fast. I've never seen one on a road with a speed limit over 35... so this guy was probably doing 45-50+ at night on a residential street while not paying attention to see that there was in fact a large painted bump reflecting light at him. Harsh. But that's a speed bump doing its job.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-13-2013, 02:25 PM
 
Location: The City
22,331 posts, read 32,171,331 times
Reputation: 7739
^^^ would agree

I think this is more the case of an idiot driving too fast not a problem with a speedbump
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top