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Old 05-06-2013, 12:17 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
That part of Upstate NY gets less snow in the winter than others. Life still goes on due to being prepared to handle it though.
The climate of Albany is almost identical to my location. Slightly less precipitation, though.
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Old 05-07-2013, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Chicago
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Some more of my thoughts:



Walmart is urban.

(I know, right?)


Well, at least Walmart is more urban than Trader Joe's.

While Trader Joe's brings groceries to it's allotted space, Walmart brings more.

Go to Trader Joe's to buy groceries.

Go to Walmart to buy groceries, baked goods, shoes, electronics, clothes, garden supplies, family portraits, etc.



To me, a single Walmart store would be more "urban" than a Trader Joe's store.



But if the average area of a Walmart was compared to a similar sized area that had individual stores that sold all the things Walmart did, but just in different establishments, that would be as "urban".

If the Walmart cut its ground floor space in half, but added a second floor, that would be even more "urban" because of more uses on less land.

If that Walmart cut its ground floor space in half, but added a second floor for wares, and then a third floor for different businesses, it would be even more "urban".

So on and so forth.

Once again, my thoughts.
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Old 05-09-2013, 07:50 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
The urbanists on this forum have cooked up this "suburban" usage to mean "it looks like a suburb", meaning, well what? And "suburban" can be in the city, per this definition. But "suburb" supposedly means outside the city. People have posted that they live in a suburb within a city as well, then say they're using the above definition.
Meaning, having the look and feel of a typical suburb in the poster's region.

I've heard people use "suburban" to mean by layout / looks like a suburb in real life outside the forum, hardly by people who could be described as "urbanists". And then there's this poster who hardly counts as one of the "urbanists" of the forum:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeepRightPassLeft View Post
Haha, true! It's all good, it's hard to take that kind of ridiculousness seriously when I myself live in a single family home, mostly auto-oriented, quiet suburban style neighborhood within New York City..
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeepRightPassLeft View Post
Most of the outer boroughs do have a very urban feel, probably due to their higher density than most typical suburbs, but there is a lot of car use. Where I live, in Staten Island, is actually one of the more car-friendly parts of the city, and despite our traffic issues I like it to be that way. I live on the southern part of the island, which is more suburban than mostly everywhere else in the city, as this satellite imagery shows.
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:43 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Meaning, having the look and feel of a typical suburb in the poster's region.

I've heard people use "suburban" to mean by layout / looks like a suburb in real life outside the forum, hardly by people who could be described as "urbanists". And then there's this poster who hardly counts as one of the "urbanists" of the forum:
But what does it mean to "look like a suburb"? That is the crux of the matter. What dos someone by that? Do they mean the homes are post-WW II? Lots of homes in Denver were built post WW II. Are the streets curvy instead of "on the grid"? Most suburbs of Denver are "on the grid". I've heard you and others say that Boston is not "on the grid", and Pittsburgh certainly isn't. The mill town where I grew up was more on a grid than Pittsburgh proper. Does it mean to have shopping centers in stead of a a downtown? There are tons of little strip centers in Denver.
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:04 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
But what does it mean to "look like a suburb"? That is the crux of the matter. What dos someone by that? Do they mean the homes are post-WW II? Lots of homes in Denver were built post WW II. Are the streets curvy instead of "on the grid"? Most suburbs of Denver are "on the grid". I've heard you and others say that Boston is not "on the grid", and Pittsburgh certainly isn't. The mill town where I grew up was more on a grid than Pittsburgh proper. Does it mean to have shopping centers in stead of a a downtown? There are tons of little strip centers in Denver.
The bolded always seemed to be fairly obvious in my experience, but it's hard to define a fine line. Perhaps KeepRightPassLeft could give a clear answer. It's more of a "I know it when I see it".

No to era. I'll start with grids. Very little of Massachusetts is gridded, that doesn't mean Boston doesn't have interconnected streets. There's just no general street organization:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Bosto...setts&t=m&z=15

I do associate strip shopping centers with suburbia. I haven't been to Denver, but if did a long stretch of strip malls, I give the impression of suburbia to me. The other difference is lower, sometimes much lower residential densities, and on average, some houses are a large distance from commercial areas.
Since metro areas vary, "looks like a suburb" could vary from place to place. But surely there must be some differences between a typical Denver neighborhood and a suburban Denver one?
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
But what does it mean to "look like a suburb"? That is the crux of the matter. What dos someone by that? Do they mean the homes are post-WW II? Lots of homes in Denver were built post WW II. Are the streets curvy instead of "on the grid"? Most suburbs of Denver are "on the grid". I've heard you and others say that Boston is not "on the grid", and Pittsburgh certainly isn't. The mill town where I grew up was more on a grid than Pittsburgh proper. Does it mean to have shopping centers in stead of a a downtown? There are tons of little strip centers in Denver.
I think it almost entirely has to do with the predominance of detached single-family homes. Even though there are plenty of arguably "suburban" areas made up of apartment complexes (especially in europe/asia, but also in many areas of the sunbelt), in the US when people say "suburban" or "like a suburb" they usually mean it is predominantly detached single-family homes. I would argue that this variable is by far the most highly correlated to someone calling a place "suburban."
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:31 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
The bolded always seemed to be fairly obvious in my experience, but it's hard to define a fine line. Perhaps KeepRightPassLeft could give a clear answer. It's more of a "I know it when I see it".

No to era. I'll start with grids. Very little of Massachusetts is gridded, that doesn't mean Boston doesn't have interconnected streets. There's just no general street organization:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Bosto...setts&t=m&z=15

I do associate strip shopping centers with suburbia. I haven't been to Denver, but if did a long stretch of strip malls, I give the impression of suburbia to me. The other difference is lower, sometimes much lower residential densities, and on average, some houses are a large distance from commercial areas.
Since metro areas vary, "looks like a suburb" could vary from place to place. But surely there must be some differences between a typical Denver neighborhood and a suburban Denver one?
I'm not a fan of "you know it when you see it". While a Supreme Court justice once said that about pornography, I disagree. It used to be that just seeing a woman's ankle was considered pornographic. These days, things that would have been considered pornography when I was your age, are considered "arty".

Back to suburbs. It truly seems to me that the only definition that covers all suburbs, horsecar, streetcar, TOD, sprawl, old farm towns turned suburb, old mining towns (mine) turned suburb, etc, is outside the city limits. So what is some old streetcar suburbs have now been annexed to a city? They're in the city now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dweebo2220 View Post
I think it almost entirely has to do with the predominance of detached single-family homes. Even though there are plenty of arguably "suburban" areas made up of apartment complexes (especially in europe/asia, but also in many areas of the sunbelt), in the US when people say "suburban" or "like a suburb" they usually mean it is predominantly detached single-family homes. I would argue that this variable is by far the most highly correlated to someone calling a place "suburban."
There are many neighborhoods in many cities that are full of detached single family homes.
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:33 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,990 posts, read 41,998,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Back to suburbs. It truly seems to me that the only definition that covers all suburbs, horsecar, streetcar, TOD, sprawl, old farm towns turned suburb, old mining towns (mine) turned suburb, etc, is outside the city limits. So what is some old streetcar suburbs have now been annexed to a city? They're in the city now.
And some of those city neighborhoods therefore look like typical suburbia.

Suburb also mean development on the outer part of an urban area.

But anyhow, aren't there general differences in style between a neighborhood outside Denver and in Denver (or within some distance from the city center) with some exceptions so you could see one neighborhood looks suburban and another doesn't?
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:40 PM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
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I can't believe that this point is still being belabored. The one person who can't figure out the suburban low-density aesthetic is the suburbs' biggest advocate!!

Suburban: Low density, majority single family homes, single-use zoning, auto-centric development, decidedly less dense than the attendant urban area. Strip malls with lots of parking. This point is only a tiny bit subjective. I'm amazed at the way this has been exacerbated. For the 10000000th time, the geopolitical location does not matter.

Large parts of cities can (and are) suburban.
Suburbs are sometimes urban.
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:47 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
And some of those city neighborhoods therefore look like typical suburbia.

Suburb also mean development on the outer part of an urban area.

But anyhow, aren't there general differences in style between a neighborhood outside Denver and in Denver (or within some distance from the city center) with some exceptions so you could see one neighborhood looks suburban and another doesn't?
What is "typical" suburbia? You come up with a term that will cover all suburban developments. There are a number of older suburbs of Denver with housing that looks just like that in Wash Park, a yuppie/hipster neighborhood. Over on the west side, the only way you know when you've left Denver and gone into say, Mountain View, Wheat Ridge or Edgewater is by the road signs.
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