U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-09-2013, 03:50 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,981 posts, read 102,540,351 times
Reputation: 33045

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by HandsUpThumbsDown View Post
I can't believe that this point is still being belabored. The one person who can't figure out the suburban low-density aesthetic is the suburbs' biggest advocate!!

Suburban: Low density, majority single family homes, single-use zoning, auto-centric development, decidedly less dense than the attendant urban area. Strip malls with lots of parking. This point is only a tiny bit subjective. I'm amazed at the way this has been exacerbated. For the 10000000th time, the geopolitical location does not matter.

Large parts of cities can (and are) suburban.
Suburbs are sometimes urban.
So I'm the forum dummy? I've always known you thought that of me, glad you posted it. I am not the only suburbanite on here either, nor the only one who advocates for the suburbs.

I disagree with your definition. I've seen many such neighborhoods in "the city", and by that I mean several cities, including Chicago. What does "auto-centric" development mean? What is "lots" of parking?

I did not start this freaking thread, though it may be that the OP was trying to start something.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-09-2013, 03:56 PM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 11,096,962 times
Reputation: 3117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
So I'm the forum dummy? I've always known you thought that of me, glad you posted it..
My exasperation did not mean to convey that ... nor do I believe it to be true.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I disagree with your definition. I've seen many such neighborhoods in "the city", and by that I mean several cities, including Chicago. What does "auto-centric" development mean? What is "lots" of parking?

.
What does orange mean? I mean there are many shades to the color.

Much of Chicago is suburban. This is why I said geopolitical location does not matter. Much of Denver is suburban. Much of Kansas City is suburban. A little bit of Baltimore is suburban. Staten Island, NYC (Where KLPR is from) is suburban. I have said this so many times but you continue to not get the basic point. The municipality doesn't matter. The municipality doesn't matter. The municipality doesn't matter.

Auto centric development means that it was developed so that a car is nearly necessity, living without one would be most onerous. Most development after WW2 was just this, regardless of location.

Lots of free parking. The expectation for free parking (tied into auto centric).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2013, 04:00 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,983 posts, read 41,929,314 times
Reputation: 14804
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post

I disagree with your definition. I've seen many such neighborhoods in "the city", and by that I mean several cities, including Chicago. What does "auto-centric" development mean? What is "lots" of parking?
And the Chicago neighborhoods felt similar to a typical suburban neighborhood? Though I'd say some city neighborhood are more urban than others.

This is definitely not autocentric:

https://maps.google.com/?ll=40.62548...98.09,,0,-3.57

This definitely is:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Jeric...97.15,,0,-0.45

Quote:
I did not start this freaking thread, though it may be that the OP was trying to start something.
The OP is not a regular on this forum, except the threads that are the "which city is more urban" threads?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2013, 04:56 PM
 
940 posts, read 1,737,513 times
Reputation: 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post

The OP is not a regular on this forum, except the threads that are the "which city is more urban" threads?
How people define and perceive urban environments is something I'm very interested in as an urbanist. I'm not necessarily interested in coming up with a technical definition of suburban/urban (I don't really think that would be possible), but with this thread I was trying to explore and deconstruct the usage of the term "urban," and therefore by association I guess "suburban" as well. People have been using these terms in common practice for generations now, so they are definitely a part of our culture's understanding of place. At the same time, though, they are very poorly defined.

Yes, we can list all of the variables that we may associate with "urban" or "suburban"... but when we take them together it's too difficult to assign value to each variable. We end up lacking the kind of detail to work well in comparing the degree of "urbanity" or "suburban-ness." We end up doing too much of, as katiana put it, "I know it when I see it." People just mean too many different things when they use these words to have a satisfactory discussion.

I've argued many times on this site that the discussions should really be shifted toward comparing "auto-orientation" or "pedestrian-friendliness" or something else along those lines. Or maybe just "which city has better urban design?" Then we'd actually know within which framework, at least, we were having the discussion.

For example, when comparing the "urbanity" of Los Angeles and Chicago, we could start with comparable sized areas, with similar household densities, and then start analyzing urban form and the concentrations and configuration of housing and amenities and the relationship to the street. This would be an urban design discussion that I think would get us the closest to actually getting at what people say when they say "urban."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2013, 05:22 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,981 posts, read 102,540,351 times
Reputation: 33045
^^I pretty much agree with the above. You don't "know it when you see it". That is the definition that is used on this forum, and that is what makes it so difficult to know what anyone means by "suburban".

Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
And the Chicago neighborhoods felt similar to a typical suburban neighborhood? Though I'd say some city neighborhood are more urban than others.

This is definitely not autocentric:

https://maps.google.com/?ll=40.62548...98.09,,0,-3.57

This definitely is:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Jeric...97.15,,0,-0.45



The OP is not a regular on this forum, except the threads that are the "which city is more urban" threads?
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=24th+...en&sa=N&tab=wl
Pan west along 24th Ave. Tell me where the city line is.

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 05-09-2013 at 06:02 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2013, 05:50 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,981 posts, read 102,540,351 times
Reputation: 33045
Quote:
Originally Posted by HandsUpThumbsDown View Post
My exasperation did not mean to convey that ... nor do I believe it to be true.




What does orange mean? I mean there are many shades to the color.

Much of Chicago is suburban. This is why I said geopolitical location does not matter. Much of Denver is suburban. Much of Kansas City is suburban. A little bit of Baltimore is suburban. Staten Island, NYC (Where KLPR is from) is suburban. I have said this so many times but you continue to not get the basic point. The municipality doesn't matter. The municipality doesn't matter. The municipality doesn't matter.

Auto centric development means that it was developed so that a car is nearly necessity, living without one would be most onerous. Most development after WW2 was just this, regardless of location.

Lots of free parking. The expectation for free parking (tied into auto centric).
It's a combination of red and yellow. Yes, there are many shades, but no one would confuse orange with purple. Suburbs come in all "shades", too, but I still maintain they're outside the city limits.

If the municipality doesn't matter, why do people talk about "suburban schools", etc? I know. I've been told, on this forum. "That's different".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2013, 05:51 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,983 posts, read 41,929,314 times
Reputation: 14804
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl
Pan west along 24th Ave. Tell me where the city line is.
Link doesn't work. But yes, city boundaries don't tell you much about built form, I've said that many times. Note the difference between the two links I posted earlier.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2013, 05:52 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,983 posts, read 41,929,314 times
Reputation: 14804
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post

If the municipality doesn't matter, why do people talk about "suburban schools", etc? I know. I've been told, on this forum. "That's different".
Because schools aren't relevant to how urban a neighborhood is. Government is a separate topic from built form.

In any case, many times the more suburban neighborhoods of cities can have better schools than older, more urban suburbs. This is likely true for KeepRightPassLeft.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2013, 06:06 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,981 posts, read 102,540,351 times
Reputation: 33045
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Link doesn't work. But yes, city boundaries don't tell you much about built form, I've said that many times. Note the difference between the two links I posted earlier.
Sorry, fixed it (I think). Try 26th Ave as 24 will take you into the lake. I was trying to show that in regard to this:

Quote:
But anyhow, aren't there general differences in style between a neighborhood outside Denver and in Denver (or within some distance from the city center) with some exceptions so you could see one neighborhood looks suburban and another doesn't?
the answer is "not necessarily".

Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Because schools aren't relevant to how urban a neighborhood is. Government is a separate topic from built form.

In any case, many times the more suburban neighborhoods of cities can have better schools than older, more urban suburbs. This is likely true for KeepRightPassLeft.
I posted some links to schools in Denver on semiurbanite's thread. (See her last response, BTW.) East High in Denver is in a more "urban" looking neighborhood (by the definition of a lot of people on here) than North (which is in a neighborhood that once was a suburb), and yet East has the highest graduation rate of all the neighborhood high schools, while North has the second lowest.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2013, 06:18 PM
 
940 posts, read 1,737,513 times
Reputation: 732
Which of these commercial districts is more urban?:

4th St., Long Beach:
long beach, ca - Google Maps
pros: narrow street width, good streetwall (minimal setback), mix of uses, low accommodation of cars
cons: suburban-style architecture, some single-story detached homes, not much height, not much density of retail, kinda "sleepy" feeling

Hollywood Blvd., East Hollywood:
Thai Town Express, Hollywood Boulevard, Los Angeles, CA - Google Maps
pros: tall/dense/old/"urban"-style apartment buildings, high retail density, relatively active with pedestrians, high traffic volumes
cons: strip malls, inconsistent streetwall, wide street
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top