U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-26-2013, 10:09 AM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 11,095,690 times
Reputation: 3117

Advertisements

I have a pair of friends who grew up together in Baltimore; both went to a decent catholic HS and hated it at the time. Now, however, as both angle to be in the next generation of political leaders/operatives, and as this is a town in which it matters far more where you went to HS than college (much of the city council has no college education) ... it is working to their benefit. I see photos of them smiling on FB at fund raisers for their old alma mater ... and I know better!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-26-2013, 11:04 AM
 
2,553 posts, read 2,003,488 times
Reputation: 1348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
"Fix the schools" is reasonable, if also problematic. I think "better schools" would mean attract more academically proficient ("better" suggests some innate superiority of one student vs. another) students, but those tend to come from wealthier families who can afford to spend more time together, spend more time on academics and after-school activities, tutoring etc. So, "fix the schools" really means "attract more successful students" which means, in turn "attract wealthier families." But, those families are finite.

In the end, the solution is to improve the horribly skewed distribution of wealth such that we have a stronger middle class.
Agree to a point. There are some good schools in solidly middle class communities in the burbs. Cities don't need to attract the super wealthy.
But, I didn't mention the top 1% (or the top 10%, for that matter). I specifically said wealthier families, because so many families have so many financial obligations despite having so little real wealth:

Copyright The Atlantic


Given how weak the bottom 60% is, it's no surprise that parents, even "middle class" ones, cannot afford tutoring, after-school programs, teenage children to not have jobs, etc. Solve the distribution, solve the education "crisis."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-26-2013, 11:14 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 14 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,980 posts, read 102,527,356 times
Reputation: 33045
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
But, I didn't mention the top 1% (or the top 10%, for that matter). I specifically said wealthier families, because so many families have so many financial obligations despite having so little real wealth:

Copyright The Atlantic


Given how weak the bottom 60% is, it's no surprise that parents, even "middle class" ones, cannot afford tutoring, after-school programs, teenage children to not have jobs, etc. Solve the distribution, solve the education "crisis."
I disagree. The school I gave you stats for is not "wealthy", yet has a 93% graduation rate. They have many after-school activities, which they wouldn't have if no one was available to participate in them. When my kids were in high school, not that long ago, virtually all students had some sort of a job, even if they were in sports, music, etc. My kids never needed a tutor, nor did any other kids that I know of. I don't think it's common to "have" to hire a tutor to get through high school these days.

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 04-26-2013 at 11:51 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-26-2013, 11:36 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,983 posts, read 41,921,149 times
Reputation: 14804
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
But, I didn't mention the top 1% (or the top 10%, for that matter). I specifically said wealthier families, because so many families have so many financial obligations despite having so little real wealth:

Copyright The Atlantic


Given how weak the bottom 60% is, it's no surprise that parents, even "middle class" ones, cannot afford tutoring, after-school programs, teenage children to not have jobs, etc. Solve the distribution, solve the education "crisis."
Income is a more sensible comparison than wealth, as other maybe houses, many of those who are not wealthy spend most of their money rather than accumulate wealth.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-26-2013, 12:06 PM
 
2,553 posts, read 2,003,488 times
Reputation: 1348
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Income is a more sensible comparison than wealth, as other maybe houses, many of those who are not wealthy spend most of their money rather than accumulate wealth.
Copyright Mother Jones
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-26-2013, 12:09 PM
 
2,553 posts, read 2,003,488 times
Reputation: 1348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I disagree. The school I gave you stats for is not "wealthy", yet has a 93% graduation rate. They have many after-school activities, which they wouldn't have if no one was available to participate in them. When my kids were in high school, not that long ago, virtually all students had some sort of a job, even if they were in sports, music, etc. My kids never needed a tutor, nor did any other kids that I know of. I don't think it's common to "have" to hire a tutor to get through high school these days.
Graduation rate isn't a great way to measure success. More valuable are measures of income in the years following graduation. I'm not saying your example is a "bad" school or that you are misrepresenting your experience. I am saying that I believe these anecdotes to be an inaccurate representation of society overall.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-26-2013, 12:11 PM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 11,095,690 times
Reputation: 3117
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
That is rather unattractive to look at.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-26-2013, 12:21 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 14 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,980 posts, read 102,527,356 times
Reputation: 33045
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
Graduation rate isn't a great way to measure success. More valuable are measures of income in the years following graduation. I'm not saying your example is a "bad" school or that you are misrepresenting your experience. I am saying that I believe these anecdotes to be an inaccurate representation of society overall.
I really have to disagree with the bold. Of course graduation is a great way to measure success in school. While you can go to community college w/o graduating, you can't go to a regular four year college w/o a HS diploma or a GED.

I was not intending to say this school represented society overall. I am saying an area doesn't have to be wealthy to have decent schools. This school has 1/3 of its kids on free/reduced lunches., and an almost 40% minority population. I'm certain there are many other examples, including my own high school. I don't have time to look up the stats right now, but I know the district is among PA's districts that perform "Better than Expected" for SES.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-26-2013, 12:31 PM
 
Location: North by Northwest
7,442 posts, read 9,873,926 times
Reputation: 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I really have to disagree with the bold. Of course graduation is a great way to measure success in school. While you can go to community college w/o graduating, you can't go to a regular four year college w/o a HS diploma or a GED.

I was not intending to say this school represented society overall. I am saying an area doesn't have to be wealthy to have decent schools. This school has 1/3 of its kids on free/reduced lunches., and an almost 40% minority population. I'm certain there are many other examples, including my own high school. I don't have time to look up the stats right now, but I know the district is among PA's districts that perform "Better than Expected" for SES.
I think he's trying to say HS graduation rates are only part of the puzzle. Past a certain point, (perhaps the 90% mark?) it means relatively little, marginally speaking.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-26-2013, 12:48 PM
 
2,553 posts, read 2,003,488 times
Reputation: 1348
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenWood View Post
I think he's trying to say HS graduation rates are only part of the puzzle. Past a certain point, (perhaps the 90% mark?) it means relatively little, marginally speaking.
Indeed, that was the case. I should have been clearer on that point.

If one wants to compare parent well-off-ness (income or wealth), it paints a more descriptive picture to use child income following HS. If a child doesn't graduate HS, or graduates but doesn't go on to college, or goes on to college but not a rigorous program, etc., those will show up in incomes as we follow the individual over time. With such data, one could say (and many papers have) how connected or divorced are parent and student "success."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top