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Old 05-02-2013, 08:45 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,254 posts, read 26,226,229 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
wup = walkable urban place.

Im not sure the argument about the correlation of wealth and preference holds. For example, most people have higher incomes when they are older - and more likely to have children, than when they are younger. Within the proportion of the pop that has college degrees, Im not sure there is a correlation between income and taste for WUPs - I think it may even be the reverse (though that will differ by metro - in the weaker ones, where taste for WUPs is mostly by deep green hipster types, the "urbanists" are probably poorer than other college grads - in the stronger and larger metros, that have developed "frat boy" WUPs like Hoboken or Clarendon, the correlation between taste for WUPs and income WITHIN the college educated sector is probably larger)

It is true that there is probably a link between college education and taste for WUPs.
I have a response to this. I'm enjoying the discussion. But have a meeting. Hold tight.
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Old 05-02-2013, 09:05 AM
 
Location: Bothell, Washington
2,701 posts, read 4,668,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
if so many more people want to live in suburbs, why does a 2BR condo in a good part of DC cost as much as a 3BR townhouse in an inner suburb, or a 3BR SFH in an outer suburb?
Because in most urban cores, there are much fewer options- fewer units available- than you'd find in the vast suburbs.
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Old 05-02-2013, 09:11 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jm31828 View Post
Because in most urban cores, there are much fewer options- fewer units available- than you'd find in the vast suburbs.
To be clear though, it's a strawman argument to suggest urbanists have ever said the majority of people want to live in cities. The argument is that market forces are undersupplying current demand for mixed-use, walkable urban living - particularly when combined with low crime and "good public schools." It's more about wanting the scales slightly tipped more towards urban development, not turning urban development into the dominant focus.
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Old 05-02-2013, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
To be clear though, it's a strawman argument to suggest urbanists have ever said the majority of people want to live in cities. The argument is that market forces are undersupplying current demand for mixed-use, walkable urban living - particularly when combined with low crime and "good public schools." It's more about wanting the scales slightly tipped more towards urban development, not turning urban development into the dominant focus.
Well, I don't think I'm making a strawman argument. I was only responding to the "if so many more people want to live in the suburbs than the city, then why are prices in the city more expensive" statement. I just clarified that its the Creative Class that wants to live in urban developments. The Service Class, which is both larger and less affluent than the Creative Class, has a completely different set of values.
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Old 05-02-2013, 09:57 AM
 
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Perhaps in NY, Boston, San Fran and DC- but this pricing dynamic does NOT exist in most US cities. Pricing in global cities includes a real element of scarcity which contributes to much higher prices in certain locations.
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,254 posts, read 26,226,229 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
Im not sure the argument about the correlation of wealth and preference holds.
It's not so much a correlation with income and preference as it is a correlation between class and preference. Though on the whole, the SWPL class is wealthier than the prole class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
For example, most people have higher incomes when they are older - and more likely to have children, than when they are younger.
This is true. But a 50-year old SWPL will be drawn to a Capitol Hill, a Del Ray, an Old Town or some other walkable type of area with farmer's markets and easy access to public transportation. Not so much for a 50-year old prole. There's still quite a divergence in preferences based on education levels, etc. within each individual age bracket.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
Within the proportion of the pop that has college degrees, Im not sure there is a correlation between income and taste for WUPs
The correlation is between WUPs and SWPLs (not between income and taste). It's just that SWPLs tend to be wealthier than proles. Not every person that has a college degree will gravitate towards WUPs (for example, an engineer that has a more politically conservative bent or simply wealthier people living in exclusive suburbs like Potomac). But the people who do gravitate towards WUPs will almost invariably be SWPL. If you look at the wealth in most regions, it's probably largely concentrated (or at least more of it is starting to concentrate) around the more walkable areas (i.e., core DC, Bethesda, Chevy Chase, bucolic MoCo suburbs). And the residents of these areas are more likely than not SWPL.

Last edited by BajanYankee; 05-02-2013 at 10:20 AM..
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Ypsilanti
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I'm not saying that SWPLs do not like (and do not live in) suburbs. I'm just saying that proles don't particularly care for cities. If you had to winnow down the population to the people who truly care about walkability, amenities, and proximity to transit, I suspect it would be a minority of the population in nearly all metro areas. That's not to say that "proles" don't care about those things at all, but I think SWPLs place a much higher value on them.



No doubt about it. There's too much demand and not enough supply for the people who want properities in those neighborhoods. But that still doesn't impact my notion that a fair segment of the population has no interest in those areas. My opinion is that it's basically the SWPL class fighting for those properties. And the fact that the SWPL class (or "Creative Class") is more affluent than the prole class (or "Service Class") contributes to higher prices as well.



"WUP" means "walkable urban property??" And that's fine if the "evidence" he presents does not establish that most people do not want "WUPs." I'm only saying that prices for WUPs may possibly be higher because the competition (an elite minority) is wealthier.
Hm, how do you come to this conclusion? I'm along the lines of thinking if prices were even it'd be 50/50.
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,254 posts, read 26,226,229 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weteath View Post
Hm, how do you come to this conclusion? I'm along the lines of thinking if prices were even it'd be 50/50.
By looking at national obesity rates as well as the ratings for Here Comes Honey Boo Boo, the Real Housewives of Atlanta and Trinidad James album sales.

Urbanmania is really more of a Creative Class thing (which is really more of an upper middle class white thing). It's really a certain type of person who values it.

A SWPL is more likely to do the following...

Read the New York Times
Go on sites like City-Data or Atlantic Cities
Go to college straight out of high school
Have a passport
Have a college degree
Have a white collar or artistic profession (architect, dentist, lawyer, doctor, software designer, musician, etc.)
Exercise
Eschew Junk Food
Drive a Subaru
Not attend church
Not shop at Wal-Mart
Recycle
Live in an urban, walkable area
Own a magazine with Zooey Deschanel on the front cover

A prole is more likely to do the following...

Not read at all
Get a job or enter the military directly out of high school
Go on sites like TMZ and Necole Bitchie
Shop at Wal-Mart
Attend church
Not leave the United States (unless military)
Eat at buffets like Golden Corral
Drive a Chevy Suburban
Watch a lot of television
Live in a more car-dependent area (and not care)
Have a poster with Megan Fox half naked
Display open homophobia
Pay attention to Fox News (unless black)

I'd say the latter outnumber the former by a good bit.

Last edited by BajanYankee; 05-02-2013 at 10:49 AM..
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:51 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,793 posts, read 10,707,607 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
This is true. But a 50-year old SWPL will be drawn to a Capitol Hill, a Del Ray, an Old Town or some other walkable type of area with farmer's markets and easy access to public transportation. Not so much for a 50-year old prole. There's still quite a divergence in preferences based on education levels, etc. within each individual age bracket..
the number of high income 50 YO, or highly educated 50 YOs, who live in Cap hill or del ray or Old town is vanishingly small compared to the numbers who live in Loudoun, outer fairfax, Potomac, etc.



Quote:
The correlation is between WUPs and SWPLs (not between income and taste). It's just that SWPLs tend to be wealthier than proles. Not every person that has a college degree will gravitate towards WUPs (for example, an engineer that has a more politically conservative bent or simply wealthier people living in exclusive suburbs like Potomac). But the people who do gravitate towards WUPs will almost invariably be SWPL..
I think the argument is getting circular here. Youre not saying highly educated people tend to prefer WUPs - youre saying people who like the things that are often associated with WUPs like WUPS. Which is not surprising, but doesnt tell us much. If you could specifiy the group differently - say liberal arts grads vs tech grads, or liberals vs Consies, that would work. Except then you have to deal with all the liberal artsy type adults who live in place like Reston, or Potomac - in greater NY in Westchester, or Great Neck - or in many suburbs of Boston. Who are just find with cars and shopping center parking lots.


Quote:
If you look at the wealth in most regions, it's probably largely concentrated (or at least more of it is starting to concentrate) around the more walkable areas (i.e., core DC, Bethesda, Chevy Chase, bucolic MoCo suburbs). And the residents of these areas are more likely than not SWPL.
I would dispute that the bucolic MoCo suburbs are particularly walkable in way under discussion here. Certainly not more so than most of the newer HOAs in Loudoun County Va. Nor are those areas wealthier.
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:54 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,793 posts, read 10,707,607 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
By looking at national obesity rates
Loudoun County Va - suburban, unhip, no bike lanes, and more tech than liberal artsy - has I think the lowest or second lowest obesity rate in Virginia, and one of the lowest in the country.

Its income, race, education driving that most likely. No connection with urbanism.

really, your identification of much of what you call SWPL with funky urban neighborhoods is contradicted by many affluent educated suburbs.
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