U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-02-2013, 12:07 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,242,183 times
Reputation: 11726

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
i suspect I know more affluent college educated suburban 50 YOs than you do, and my strong sense is that quite a few of them actively dislike places like the Hill, for many reasons
And that's fine. But I bet there are more educated 50-year olds that prefer WUPs than non-educated 50-year olds. Where are the empty nester Master Electricians and Boilermakers (many of whom earn well into the six figures) who are considering selling their house in Manassas to move to a cute, walkable nabe near public transit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
I think you also seem to consider the desire to live in such a place as 100% a cultural thing - I beleive at least a few people with no cultural/ideological preference for "urbanism" simply do not enjoy needing to drive everywhere.
No, I don't think it's a "100% cultural thing." But I do think it is a cultural thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
I believe you are way overemphasizing the role of these cultural stereotypes in impacting behavior in both directions, as well as rather underemphasizing the diversity of tastes among the educated.
I don't think I'm overemphasizing it at all. SWPLs (virtually coextensive with the Creative Class) have a much stronger preference for WUPs than proles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
But again, I did not mean to imply that the price difference proved that greater than 50% of households have a preference for urban living. What I wanted to indicate is that the factoid Kotkin pointed out (which this thread began with) does not prove the opposite, since he ignores the role of price. Note the line you bolded "so many more" It may well be be that the number with SOME preference for walkable convenience to transit and/or other amenities is less than 50% but well over what Kotkin implied.
Okay.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-02-2013, 12:10 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,803 posts, read 10,712,708 times
Reputation: 2523
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Hmmm...it's interesting how emotion (and a kneejerk proclivity for political correctness) can morph the plain meaning of written words into something entirely different.

What do the words "more likely to do the following" mean to you? And how on earth does that translate into "all suburbs are this" or "all cities are that?" Please. Tell me.

You can basically take everything I listed and place it in a sentence.

SWPLs are more likely than proles to read the New York Times.
SWPLs are more likely to attend college straight out of high school than proles.
SWPLs are more likely to have a passport than proles.
SWPLs are more likely to live in cities than proles.
Proles are more likely to drive a Chevy Suburban than SWPLs.
Proles are more likely to be homophobic than SWPLs.
Proles are more likely to join the military directly out of high school than SWPLs.
Proles are more likely to live in car-dependent suburbs than SWPLs.

For all of the railing against stereotyping that goes on, we know that these things are largely true. The Mitt Romney campaign, for example, knows that someone with a subscription to the New York Times, attended college, and drives a Subaru is not going to vote for them. And the Obama campaign knows that someone who enlisted in the Marines right out of high school, attends church regularly, and drives a Ford F-150 is not going to vote for them. I mean, I don't think there was anything particularly controversial about what I wrote.

first of all SWPL is an abbreviation for 'stuff white people like'. its not a group of people. Proles is seldom used in the USA - its a short form for proletariat (IE unskilled factory labor) thats used as an insult in '1984' (is it otherwise used in the UK?) non college educated folks in the USA range from poor people driving beater compacts, to rural folks driving pickups, to entrepreneurs driving the same prestige imports (BMWs, not Subarus) that their college educated peers drive.

And there are lots and lots of folks driving unfashional minivans.

This is just a lot of cultural stereotypes tossed around.

As such it might make a good NYT article.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2013, 12:13 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,803 posts, read 10,712,708 times
Reputation: 2523
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
And that's fine. But I bet there are more educated 50-year olds that prefer WUPs than non-educated 50-year olds. Where are the empty nester Master Electricians and Boilermakers (many of whom earn well into the six figures) who are considering selling their house in Manassas to move to a cute, walkable nabe near public transit?
Neither is significant in number. A Master Electrician though, could go to town so to speak, in a WUP. By doing the renos themselves, and flipping. These days people are less likely to live in a place while the renov than they did back in the 80s. I knew a couple in baltimore who made a living doing that - I think they lived in the city themselves. Not sure their highest degree - they had college educated friends, but lived a very hands on life.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2013, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,242,183 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
first of all SWPL is an abbreviation for 'stuff white people like'. its not a group of people.
No, it's not a group of people in the way African Americans are a group of people. Or the way the handicap are a group of people. It is not discrete in that sense. "SWPL" is merely a constellation of characteristics that denotes a particular standing. It's similar to being a Hipster in that regard. It's not who they are but what they do that defines them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
This is just a lot of cultural stereotypes tossed around.
Hate to break it to you, but there's often a lot of truth in stereotypes. Even the ugliest ones. They just don't materialize out of thin air.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
As such it might make a good NYT article.
There's been quite a lot written about it already.

Prole Vs SWPL | Chateau Heartiste
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2013, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,419 posts, read 11,926,143 times
Reputation: 10539
I think "urbanists" tend to have a higher income than the norm for their general demographic (e.g., controlling for race and age). But, given they tend to be on the younger size, and income tends to rise every year until retirement, they probably aren't wealthier than average.

Similarly, once you account for education, I'm not sure that urbanists are wealthier. Architects, editors, or graphic designers might be more likely to live in the city, but those aren't exactly high paid jobs considering the educational background required, and I'm not even going to get into artists, grad students, and the semi-employed. I'm not sure if doctors or lawyers would be more or less likely to choose city life in the longer run, and I'd say engineers and people in "business" probably pick the suburban life pretty heavily.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2013, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,242,183 times
Reputation: 11726
Just out of curiosity...is there anyone in this forum that...

1. Entered the military straight out of high school
2. Shops at Wal-Mart on a regular basis
3. Watches more than three hours of television per day
4. Drives an SUV
5. Enjoys eating at buffets (i.e., Old Country Buffet, Golden Corral, etc.)
6. Never traveled internationally
7. Votes Republican (in national elections)
8. Never attended college
9. Has a "blue collar" profession (i.e., aviation mechanic, security guard, electrician, etc.)
10. Is homophobic?

I'll answer my own questions.

1. Nope.
2. No. But that's only because there isn't one near me.
3. No.
4. No.
5. Yep. I love some Golden Corral even though I know it's supposed to be bad for me.
6. Have had a Passport for as long as I can remember.
7. Never. But would never call myself a "liberal."
8. Been there, done that.
9. No. Otherwise, I wouldn't be typing this.
10. No.

Last edited by BajanYankee; 05-02-2013 at 12:47 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2013, 12:37 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,803 posts, read 10,712,708 times
Reputation: 2523
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Just out of curiosity...is there anyone in this forum that...

1. Entered the military straight out of high school
2. Shops at Wal-Mart on a regular basis
3. Watches more than three hours of television per day
4. Drives an SUV
5. Enjoys eating at buffets
6. Never traveled internationally
7. Votes Republican (in national elections)
8. Never attended college
9. Has a "blue collar" profession (i.e., aviation mechanic, security guard, electrician, etc.)
10. Is homophobic?
We used to eat a buffet regularly when our kid was small. I can't say I preferred it. The friends of our who DID prefer it both voted Repub, and both had college degrees, from good schools, one from an Ivy. Neither of them had a blue collar job. They did have an SUV - since when is that unelite? And why go to WalMart when there's Costco? Costco isnt just for groceries anymore, ya know?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2013, 12:39 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,242,183 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
We used to eat a buffet regularly when our kid was small. I can't say I preferred it. The friends of our who DID prefer it both voted Repub, and both had college degrees, from good schools, one from an Ivy. Neither of them had a blue collar job. They did have an SUV - since when is that unelite? And why go to WalMart when there's Costco? Costco isnt just for groceries anymore, ya know?
I just asked a question about the actual people posting here. Anybody never left the country? Homophobic? Never attend college? Shop at Wal-Mart?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2013, 12:42 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,803 posts, read 10,712,708 times
Reputation: 2523
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
7. Votes Republican (in national elections)

good qualifier.

Follow the latest DC election - at large council special election? Top three finishers were Bonds (african american, 'regular DC pol" endorsed by Evans AND Barry) Silverman (capital hill urbanist progressive) and Mara (republican, low taxes, progay marriage, pro charter schools)

Ward 6 and the white "new areas" went solidly for Silverman. But Ward 3, and most of Ward 2, went solidly for Mara.

There were of course national GOP votes in DC. There were also Romney votes in Old Town Alex - highest in the ritziest parts near the waterfront. But there were lots of dem precincts in buffet country - burke, springfield, centreville, etc.

The folks who've told you rich=liberal have sold you a bill of goods.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2013, 12:44 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,803 posts, read 10,712,708 times
Reputation: 2523
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I just asked a question about the actual people posting here. Anybody never left the country? Homophobic? Never attend college? Shop at Wal-Mart?

you might try a CD forum other than "urban planning".

I would indeed be not be surpised that noone who regularly reads the urban planning forum, in particular a thread with "new article by kotkin" in the title, would say yes to those questions
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top