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Old 05-03-2013, 10:25 AM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,956,746 times
Reputation: 1953

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Quote:
Originally Posted by munchitup View Post
Interesting perspective. Sounds pretty logical.

However I still think white flight played some part in it. Though perhaps not the enormous role most think it did?
In 1948 the US Supreme Court ruled that racially restrictive covenants were illegal. A restrictive covenant was basically something in your deed description that said "you can only sell this house to another white person." That allowed blacks to move in to white neighborhoods, in theory, but in practice blacks had no access to credit. Back in the day private banks redlined "mixed" neighborhoods in general and wouldn't guarantee loans on houses in black neighborhoods in particular. The laws were changed in 1968, updated in 1977 but the practice probably persisted until the early 80s. So when a neighborhood reached a certain level of integration white people couldn't buy a house there because there were too many black people and black people couldn't buy a house there because there were too many white people.

If there's no one to buy your house then it isn't really worth anything.

Unscrupulous real estate people would take advantage of this, scare white people with "you better sell now while your house is still worth something." and get the white people to sell out for fire sale prices then, with all the white people gone, turn around and sell to black families for double the price and at ridiculous interest rates. It was a process known as blockbusting.

This was big in Chicago but still doesn't account for most of the demographic shift there and it doesn't really explain what happened in most other US cities post WWII.

Anyway, people with an agenda to push latch on to stories like that, twist it, then make it out to be like that's why all white people left the city - because they were running from black people.

I'm white - 3 out of my 4 grandparents lived in mixed neighborhoods in NYC/JC that were relatively poor. They all hated their experiences growing up - not because of who they grew up with - because they had no central heating or air conditioning and would have to get up at 6am in a freezing cold house to go throw some coal in the furnace and light it. They had one toilet and no shower for 6 people. They could hear their neighbors talking through the walls. The neighborhoods were generally dirty and miserable. A brand new house in the suburbs was a slice of heaven. It was only my one grandfather who lived in a middle class neighborhood in Brooklyn (his parents were teachers) who was reluctant to leave the city.
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Old 05-03-2013, 10:35 AM
 
2,388 posts, read 2,956,746 times
Reputation: 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
In some city neighborhoods you can see the difference between ones that have aged the white population is predominately older [some call it a "grandma neighborhood"] and the younger population is heavily minority and ones that are white flight neighborhoods almost all the white people left.
White people in their 70s and 80s who are living in urban neighborhoods today would've been 20 years old in in the 1950s or 1960s - exactly when all of this white flight was supposed to be happening.

Two other things were at play - 1.there were two big periods of black migration to northern cities. By the time WWII started there were already large, african american neighborhoods in Philadelphia. The same is true in NYC, Chicago, Cleveland, etc, etc.

2. they typically moved to the neighborhoods with the oldest, cheapest housing stock (as each immigrant group before them did). When people move up the income ladder they also usually buy up on the housing ladder. When that happens it leaves an opening on the rung below.
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Old 05-03-2013, 10:55 AM
 
Location: Pasadena, CA
10,087 posts, read 13,118,020 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly View Post
White people in their 70s and 80s who are living in urban neighborhoods today would've been 20 years old in in the 1950s or 1960s - exactly when all of this white flight was supposed to be happening.

Two other things were at play - 1.there were two big periods of black migration to northern cities. By the time WWII started there were already large, african american neighborhoods in Philadelphia. The same is true in NYC, Chicago, Cleveland, etc, etc.

2. they typically moved to the neighborhoods with the oldest, cheapest housing stock (as each immigrant group before them did). When people move up the income ladder they also usually buy up on the housing ladder. When that happens it leaves an opening on the rung below.
Yep you are seeing that today in Los Angeles with "black flight" - most of South Los Angeles, Compton, etc has changed from primarily African American to primarily Hispanic (many of which are Central American, not Mexican). Only the west side of South LA still has nearly-monolithic blocks of African-Americans.
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:38 PM
 
Location: Portland, OR
9,608 posts, read 9,849,880 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
The first thing I'll say is that a bus ride from NYC to Chicago sounds completely ridiculous. I'm sure people do it, but just not me.

The second thing I'll say is that people may not be sitting next to you because you're ugly. I'm not saying you are ugly, but that could be a reason. I don't think many people would hesitate to sit next to Denzel Washington or Will Smith. Just sayin.
I actually found your information on the Bolt line interesting. I was asking a straight question devoid of any other agenda besides insight. Why the personal insult? The bus I was on left Port Authority absolutely full. It was sometimes half full at points along the way but never less than half full. Given that at least four buses a day leave NYC following a similar itinerary you are a bit understated in your estimation of how many people do what I did. LOTS do. Nor did you care to wonder why... but what of it? This entire thread is about empowerment. Those that eschew mass transit in general, and bus systems in particular, because of the smell or behavior or appearance of other people, make the choice to use personal transportation because they can...it's no joy being around such people when they can't ... I have to admit I am really surprised. I know lots of Bajans. Pretty sharp people for the most part. Making flip judgements without basis just to be smarmy isn't what I expect when dealing with someone that wears the label. My bad.

H
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Portland, OR
9,608 posts, read 9,849,880 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by munchitup View Post
Yep you are seeing that today in Los Angeles with "black flight" - most of South Los Angeles, Compton, etc has changed from primarily African American to primarily Hispanic (many of which are Central American, not Mexican). Only the west side of South LA still has nearly-monolithic blocks of African-Americans.
Dude... that isn't moving up. It's moving out. There is a difference. The blacks in Compton, Harlem or North Portland aren't 'fleeing', they're being expelled...
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:01 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,813 posts, read 10,717,818 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly View Post
White people in their 70s and 80s who are living in urban neighborhoods today would've been 20 years old in in the 1950s or 1960s - exactly when all of this white flight was supposed to be happening.
depends on the city and the specific neighborhood - some experienced "white flight" later.
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,258,197 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
I actually found your information on the Bolt line interesting. I was asking a straight question devoid of any other agenda besides insight. Why the personal insult?
I didn't mean it as an insult. I just offered it as an alternative explanation. It's possible that people are not sitting next to you because you're black, but it's equally possible that they're not sitting next to you because you're unattractive. The former is reprehensible. The latter? Eh. Personally, I've never had the experience you've had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
The bus I was on left Port Authority absolutely full. It was sometimes half full at points along the way but never less than half full. Given that at least four buses a day leave NYC following a similar itinerary you are a bit understated in your estimation of how many people do what I did. LOTS do. Nor did you care to wonder why... but what of it?
I did wonder why. It's possible that they avoided you because you're black and it's also possible they avoided you because you have bad BO. Nobody likes people with BO (that doesn't mean Barack Obama, btw....pretty sure he smells really good).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
This entire thread is about empowerment.
Oh word? Let me pull my black glove out of my desk drawer.

Quote:
I know lots of Bajans. Pretty sharp people for the most part.
Yep.
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:10 PM
 
4,023 posts, read 3,267,953 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly View Post
I know white flight is the popular narrative but it's not really what happened.

White people didn't move to the suburbs to get away from black people.
So there's no such thing as racism? Racism never existed in this country and it's just a figment of my imagination? I guess my history teachers were all lying to me?


Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly View Post
The growth in the suburbs would've happened either way because the US population has doubled since 1950. All of those people have to live somewhere.

And they could have built more cities to live in. The growth of suburbia was a choice, made possible by the rise of the oil and auto industries, and construction of the interstate highway. There was a policy at the federal level of pushing migration to the suburbs coupled with a desire of many whites, though not all, to self-segregate after Brown v Board of Education. Many didn't want their kids going to integrated schools.
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:14 PM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 11,107,012 times
Reputation: 3117
Quote:
Originally Posted by cisco kid View Post
So there's no such thing as racism? Racism never existed in this country and it's just a figment of my imagination? I guess my history teachers were all lying to me?.
You are making a complicated issue, to which Philly added some context, rather simplisitic. A lot of it was regular ol racism, but plenty more was institutional and economic in nature... Look up the terms redlining and blockbusting.

Your comments about the "thugs" on the bus were rather prejudicial anyway, so I'm not sure from what side you're arguing.
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:17 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,258,197 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
I actually found your information on the Bolt line interesting. I was asking a straight question devoid of any other agenda besides insight. Why the personal insult? The bus I was on left Port Authority absolutely full. It was sometimes half full at points along the way but never less than half full. Given that at least four buses a day leave NYC following a similar itinerary you are a bit understated in your estimation of how many people do what I did. LOTS do. Nor did you care to wonder why... but what of it? This entire thread is about empowerment. Those that eschew mass transit in general, and bus systems in particular, because of the smell or behavior or appearance of other people, make the choice to use personal transportation because they can...it's no joy being around such people when they can't ... I have to admit I am really surprised. I know lots of Bajans. Pretty sharp people for the most part. Making flip judgements without basis just to be smarmy isn't what I expect when dealing with someone that wears the label. My bad.

H
In all seriousness, though, are you heavy? Like Professor Sherman Klump heavy? Because I'll sit next to an ugly person, but sitting next to a lard rump I cannot abide. There's nothing worse than fat just twisting and torquing away next to you to fit all of 355 lbs into a chair that was intended for a person of a normal BMI. Then there's the breathing and the sweating. God forbid they have the window seat and have to get up. Blech.
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