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Old 05-04-2013, 05:51 AM
 
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I guess we can agree to disagree. If the SAT is the only outlier, I am not surprised as it is a test that can be easily taught to with tutoring, which would explain that this is the only area where there was a discrepancy in the results.
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Old 05-04-2013, 07:51 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 19 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
The further fact that one particular type of private school does better than others just further reinforces the point that where you go does seem to matter a great deal. All of which is besides the point anyway. Your original premise was that because districts with high median incomes had higher proficiency scores that means a high income student could go to a low median income school district and would perform just as well as he would have at the high median income district. You've shown no evidence to support that. Most high income families bought into high income districts or pay for private schools. You absolutely have to control for SES to determine that. Most high SES students are in high SES districts or private schools.
Is that what this thread is about? It was hard for me to figure out just what the point was! Thanks.

Anyone who wants to try this as an experiment is certainly welcome to put their kids in lower-income schools at evaluate the results. But no one wants to do that!
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Old 05-04-2013, 08:15 AM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
That makes it even LESS specific. How do they (the College Board) come up with this?

I have been pondering this for decades. I was stunned as a teacher by the College Board data for the SATs. That data, then as now, shows that SAT scores go up in perfect tandem with $20,000-dollar family income amounts. Here is the 2012 data:
Family Income Critical Reading Mathematics
0$ $20,000 433 461
$20,000 $40,000 463 481
$40,000 $60,000 485 500
$60,000 $80,000 499 512
$80,000 $100,000 511 525
$100,000 $120,000 523 539
$120,000 $140,000 527 543
$140,000 $160,000 534 551
$160,000 $200,000 540 557
More than $200,000 567 589

You couldn't break my subdivision into $20K increments, let alone my whole school district, which is very diverse. Heck, if I were to bump up to full time work, our household income would increase by that much. If one of our kids were living with us and working, ditto. And I will point out, these numbers have nothing to do in that case with individual students, which is the premise of the OP, that it is family income, not any other factor, that makes all the difference, b/c these numbers do no look at individual family incomes.
Generally those type of very specific breakdowns are from surveys, taking a [hopefully] statistically representative sample of students from each income breakdown, . If you dig deeper at the source, there's usually an explanation. The change from income is somewhat less than I expected.
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Old 05-04-2013, 08:19 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 19 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Originally Posted by nei;29417286[B
]Generally those type of very specific breakdowns are from surveys[/b], taking a [hopefully] statistically representative sample of students from each income breakdown, . If you dig deeper at the source, there's usually an explanation. The change from income is somewhat less than I expected.
Perhaps. I think the $20K divisions are a bit small. As I said, if I bumped up to full time, I'd add at least that much more to our household income, with no discernible difference in our family values. My daughter used to live with us, and she made $20K working in a day care center. Again, that did not change our family values. I also have issues with graphs that are just too neat. Something's missing.
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Old 05-04-2013, 08:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Anyone who wants to try this as an experiment is certainly welcome to put their kids in lower-income schools at evaluate the results. But no one wants to do that!
It's not an experiment, it's the real world. If you live in a homogeneous suburb where everyone is of the same income, it may be hard to relate. But many towns and cities have school districts with significantly varied incomes, especially in small cities where the janitor's kids and the lawyers kids go to the same school. And in urban areas that are gentrifying where the higher income newcomers put their kids in the local schools. I see it all around me, and have been very surprised to see how many Harvard and MIT professors put their kids in the local school which are ranked poorly, yet their children tend to thrive. And lets face it, these parent understand education much more than most parents do.
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Old 05-04-2013, 09:57 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
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And how many is that? Five? Excluding Boston Latin, that is.
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Old 05-05-2013, 12:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by semiurbanite View Post
It's not an experiment, it's the real world. If you live in a homogeneous suburb where everyone is of the same income, it may be hard to relate. But many towns and cities have school districts with significantly varied incomes, especially in small cities where the janitor's kids and the lawyers kids go to the same school. And in urban areas that are gentrifying where the higher income newcomers put their kids in the local schools. I see it all around me, and have been very surprised to see how many Harvard and MIT professors put their kids in the local school which are ranked poorly, yet their children tend to thrive. And lets face it, these parent understand education much more than most parents do.

Their children thrive likely because a professor can provide an enriched home enviroment(i.e. trips, books, time for reading ect...). I do think that schools make a difference but not as much as people who spend lots of money on an house inthe burbs think. A bad school is not good for children but on the other hand sending your kid to a expensive school can be a waste. It is more about the school enviroment(is it safe, ect?).
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Old 05-05-2013, 12:09 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 19 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,003 posts, read 102,592,596 times
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Originally Posted by semiurbanite View Post
It's not an experiment, it's the real world. If you live in a homogeneous suburb where everyone is of the same income, it may be hard to relate. But many towns and cities have school districts with significantly varied incomes, especially in small cities where the janitor's kids and the lawyers kids go to the same school. And in urban areas that are gentrifying where the higher income newcomers put their kids in the local schools. I see it all around me, and have been very surprised to see how many Harvard and MIT professors put their kids in the local school which are ranked poorly, yet their children tend to thrive. And lets face it, these parent understand education much more than most parents do.
Quit being so condescending! Did you miss my post about my diverse school district? In addition, I attended school in a diverse district. I know all about the janitor's children and the lawyer's children attending school together, though in my own hometown it was the steelworkers' children and the steel engineers' children, for the most part, with a few doctors and lawyers thrown in. I live in a college area, and I disagree with your last statement. Those professors understand college education, but not necessarily K-12. There are a lot of different factors in K-12, starting with the public schools having to take all comers, unlike college where there is an application/acceptance process. I have been studying educational issues with a non-partisan political organization for 25 years now. If anyone understands education, I do. BTW, I thought you lived in some high-end "inner-ring" suburb where everyone was part of the "creative class"?
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by semiurbanite View Post
Actually, religious schools are the one outlier - the students do perform better there for some reason. The article states that only a small number of private schools are religious.
Bad article most private schools are religous. That being said Private schools have one advantage over Public schools. They can select their students and kick out disruptive or underperforming students much more easily than a public school.
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by semiurbanite View Post
I guess we can agree to disagree. If the SAT is the only outlier, I am not surprised as it is a test that can be easily taught to with tutoring, which would explain that this is the only area where there was a discrepancy in the results.
Tutoring only helps if the student needs to be brushed up for the SAT test, say some Algebra II they forgot because they took it 2 years ago. If the student did not learn it then tutoring isn't going to help.
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