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Old 05-08-2013, 06:42 AM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 11,105,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
The population of Bedford-Stuyvesant went from being 25% black in 1940 to 50% in 1950,
He probably moved around '38. Maybe ahead of the bulk of the flight? I don't know. The GI bill post WW2 accelerated it, I'm sure.
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Old 05-08-2013, 05:27 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,011 posts, read 102,621,396 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by semiurbanite View Post
I never said crappy schools, I said schools with lower scores but usually higher diversity. If you call that crappy, those are your words not mine.

My point is that SES drives student achievement, not the school itself. I don't consider a "low ranking" school to be crappy if the top 30% of student are from involved, highly educated parents (mostly Masters and PhD), but the lower 30% are Brazilian speaking and therefore scoring poorly, yet still come from strong families and do not disrupt the classroom.

See all of my links to studies showing that private school students do outperform public school student, UNTIL you control for SES. Once you control for SES, there is no difference in achievement. In one study the public school kids outperformed in math after adjusting for SES.
So you would like a school like this one:

East High School - Denver, Colorado - CO - School overview

While I don't care much for "great schools" they have all the data here. They rate East High an 8, out of 10. East has the highest graduation rate of any neighborhood school in Denver, at 87.6%, and higher than the state average, 78%. (Magnets and charters excepted) 27% are on free/reduced lunch, the only measure of SES that schools use. Now I doubt that 30% speak Brazilian at home; the last time I was in Brazil, people there spoke Portuguese, and it is more likely that some students speak Spanish at home here in Denver. If you look at East's attendance area and you know Denver, you can see that it takes in both some very affluent areas of the city, plus some low-income minority neighborhoods. The thing is, East has always been an outstanding performer. George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, in more affluent areas, also have graduation rates above the state average.

I seriously doubt you'd want to send your kids to this place:
North High School - Denver, Colorado - CO - School overview

This school is in a "gentrifying" area and is full of "hipsters". 63% graduation rate, 74% on free/reduced lunch, Great Schools rating 2/10. Most of the elementary schools in "hip" NW Denver are rated 2 and 3, save for a few which aren't really in the "hippest" portion.

You're probably asking by now, "What's your point?" My point is, the schools in these newly gentrifying neighborhoods have yet to catch up. It would take some brave souls to send their kids to these schools.


Denver Public Schools's graduation rate climbs while dropout rate stays the same - Denver - News - The Latest Word
State’s four-year grad rate inches up | EdNewsColorado
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Old 05-08-2013, 07:39 PM
 
12,300 posts, read 15,202,635 times
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What it shows is if the students don't want to learn, it doesn't matter how much money you dump into the school. Typically those at the bottom of the barrel don't place much emphasis on learning, with the exception of Asians.
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Old 05-09-2013, 10:16 AM
 
1,356 posts, read 1,636,441 times
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Interesting topic.

I just posted this yesterday in the teaching forum:

The Report

It's a report to the Secretary of Education written by various education scholars on educational equity. By educational equity, it means things like diverse schools, distributing resources according to a childs needs and so forth. It doesn't necessarily mean distributing resources equally.

Anyways, SES does matter, but it's overemphasized. There are in school factors that can affect achievement such as teachers and administration. Generally the ones who can make a huge difference leave underperforming districts for various reasons such as low pay, bad administration, and not being given the resources to address the students needs. Just blaming it on SES lead to some unintended consequences some of which are starting to rear its ugly head in this topic which include, but are not limited to, focusing on race, IQ, and thinking that students don't want to learn. I know in Virginia, they are now basing test expectations based on race. Unfortunately many of the public(and teachers) buy into this which allows this to happen and is currently why the business model is winning the public over.


Anyways, you guys should look at page 18 of the report since that part is especially relevant to this forum since it talks about disparities in school funding. Part III of the report: Ensuring Access to High-Quality Early Childhood Education, is also relevant to this forum when it comes to education since it means that many low income parents don't have to decide between working or putting off work to take of their child at home. Many don't have the choice to do the latter which can hinder a child's physical and cognitive development and put him/her at a disadvantage when that child finally starts school by being behind their peers. This is the main reason why I went into early/primary education and why I work with urban youth.

Part IV is relevant as well: IV. Meeting the Needs of Students in High-Poverty Communities.

There's a shorter version in that same link that also summarizes the information from the port.
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:16 PM
 
1,211 posts, read 887,653 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
It would take some brave souls to send their kids to these schools.


Don't know what to say other than - glad I don't live there!
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:57 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,011 posts, read 102,621,396 times
Reputation: 33075
Quote:
Originally Posted by Octa View Post
Interesting topic.

I just posted this yesterday in the teaching forum:

The Report

It's a report to the Secretary of Education written by various education scholars on educational equity. By educational equity, it means things like diverse schools, distributing resources according to a childs needs and so forth. It doesn't necessarily mean distributing resources equally.

Anyways, SES does matter, but it's overemphasized. There are in school factors that can affect achievement such as teachers and administration. Generally the ones who can make a huge difference leave underperforming districts for various reasons such as low pay, bad administration, and not being given the resources to address the students needs. Just blaming it on SES lead to some unintended consequences some of which are starting to rear its ugly head in this topic which include, but are not limited to, focusing on race, IQ, and thinking that students don't want to learn. I know in Virginia, they are now basing test expectations based on race. Unfortunately many of the public(and teachers) buy into this which allows this to happen and is currently why the business model is winning the public over.


Anyways, you guys should look at page 18 of the report since that part is especially relevant to this forum since it talks about disparities in school funding. Part III of the report: Ensuring Access to High-Quality Early Childhood Education, is also relevant to this forum when it comes to education since it means that many low income parents don't have to decide between working or putting off work to take of their child at home. Many don't have the choice to do the latter which can hinder a child's physical and cognitive development and put him/her at a disadvantage when that child finally starts school by being behind their peers. This is the main reason why I went into early/primary education and why I work with urban youth.

Part IV is relevant as well: IV. Meeting the Needs of Students in High-Poverty Communities.

There's a shorter version in that same link that also summarizes the information from the port.
My computer wouldn't load that study. However, I will say, it is an urban legend that per-pupil spending is lower in (most) city school districts. It is also an urban legend that teachers are paid less in urban districts. I have posted links about this, I think in this thread, if not, somewhere on this forum. I know I posted the Denver Public Schools salary chart somewhere. (And you can google it.) As far as early childhood, most low income parents who work have to have their kids in some kind of child care. Most of the parents in the pediatric practice where I work call this child care "school". My daughter worked at a day care and they did have preschool programs for kids from 3 up.
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Old 05-09-2013, 07:07 PM
 
1,356 posts, read 1,636,441 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
My computer wouldn't load that study. However, I will say, it is an urban legend that per-pupil spending is lower in (most) city school districts. It is also an urban legend that teachers are paid less in urban districts. I have posted links about this, I think in this thread, if not, somewhere on this forum. I know I posted the Denver Public Schools salary chart somewhere. (And you can google it.) As far as early childhood, most low income parents who work have to have their kids in some kind of child care. Most of the parents in the pediatric practice where I work call this child care "school". My daughter worked at a day care and they did have preschool programs for kids from 3 up.
Hey.

It isn't a urban legend for one or two. The reason why I posted that report(meant to influence the Department of Edu and president Obama) is that it was prepared by academics who are taken seriously in their field so they're not just blowing steam an even offer citations within the text about school finance and the how teacher pay affects students in low income environments. I know from personal experience that out of the three closest cities near me(DC, Richmond, and Norfolk) only DC pays more(marginally) than the suburbs, but the average pay in DC for a teacher is near the base since teachers leave after 4-5 years. The fact that they have the impact system which is essentially a merit(business model) hurts especially when test scores account for 40% of their final score. DC is also inundated with Charter schools(again the business model) wrecking the local system. In Richmond and Norfolk, teachers can make more or the same teaching in the surrounding suburbs with more supportive administration.

As for childcare, I think we need to make clear the distinction between child care(day care) and high quality early education(pre-K) as indicated in the report. In the US, it's particularly problematic in that it's 1) not as universal compared to other developed countries and 2)the staff need more professional development and training.

Anyways I'll just copy/paste some of the sections since you can't get it to load(it'll break the formating):

Last edited by nei; 05-14-2013 at 10:09 AM.. Reason: left it up since people had trouble reading the link, but it's still a copyright violation
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Old 05-11-2013, 05:46 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,011 posts, read 102,621,396 times
Reputation: 33075
^^Octa, as much as I'd like to be on the same page as you, I have a hard time accepting information w/o some documentation. I looked up the per-pupil spending appropriations in Colorado. The highest spending districts are in the mountains and the ag country of the eastern plains. No surprise there, these are small districts with small class sizes, and large transportation costs. There are 178 districts in Colorado. The first metro Denver area school district on the list is:

Douglas County at #60. Note that Dougco is still semi-rural. The rest:
Brighton, also semi-rural, 66
Sheridan, high poverty, 71
Jefferson County, the state's largest district, has some mountain schools, 81
Denver Public Schools, 82
Cherry Creek Schools, considered by some the best district in the state, 84
Northglenn-Thornton, another "good" district, 105
Adams County 14, 111
Boulder Valley SD, another "good to very good" district, some mountain schools, 115
Englewood, more poverty, 127
St. Vrain Valley SD, another semi-rural district plus some mountain-area schools, 130
Littleton, another "good to very good", 136
Aurora Public Schools (Adams-Arapahoe), high poverty in some areas, 147
Mapleton, a working class district, 151
Adams 50, ditto, 152
Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed

In my reading, while trying to find this information, I also found that there are many ways to calculate per-pupil spending, which also muddies the waters.

Regarding teacher pay, here is the salary schedule for Denver:
http://static.dpsk12.org/gems/hr2009/20122013Salary.pdf
$38K-$75K depending on education and years of experience

Jefferson County:
http://www.jefcoed.com/departments/F...20Schedule.pdf
$36K-$80K A little higher at the top levels.

Cherry Creek Schools:
http://www.cherrycreekschools.org/Hu...20Schedule.pdf
$36.6K to $81K (prior school year)

Boulder Valley:
http://www.cherrycreekschools.org/Hu...20Schedule.pdf
$40K to $95,500 with a PhD and many years' experience.

Douglas County:
https://www.dcsdk12.org/cs/groups/pu.../dcs697589.pdf
$33,500 to $79,200

Just a few examples. These are easy to find with Google.

Regarding child care, most child care centers run preschool programs from age 3 up, and most states require directors, group leaders and teachers in child care centers to have certifications.
CDHS-ChildYouthFam - Early Childhood Teacher

Last edited by Yac; 05-21-2013 at 06:58 AM.. Reason: Correct Douglas County
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Old 05-14-2013, 10:03 AM
 
1,356 posts, read 1,636,441 times
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Katiana I understand. The forum messed up the format of the quotes I copy/pasted, but those numbers are supposed to be in brackets and they are citations. Even though I think TED can be a little pretentious at times, I recommend watching this video from a person who works for the Program for International Student Assessment if you have the time:

Andreas Schleicher: Use data to build better schools | Video on TED.com

He talks how schools spend their money per pupil is just as important as how much they are spending per pupil altogether. Going back the report, they note that it's not like across the country, but it's significant enough to be a problem. Louisiana is an obvious example since the state has giving it away in the form of vouchers which are not equitable. And the teacher pay is like that here for the most part, but there is a blurb about it in the report that mentions teacher training and pay and one way that they want to address it is by raising the professionalism of the profession by attracting higher quality candidates through higher pay. So the starting salary would be comparable to that of an engineer at 60k and exceptional teachers would have the potential to earn up to 160k. As to how that relates to this topic, the biggest in school factor for student achievement in low SES schools is teacher effectiveness.

Here's a page you can look at it that talks about it:

Educational Leadership:Helping All Students Achieve:Closing the Achievement Gap

Some more sources(these come from a book published around 2000):

1) William L. and Rivers, Joan C. "Cumulative And Residual Effects of Teachers on Future Student Academic Achievement."
2) Heather Jordan, Robert Mendro, & Dash Weerasinghe, " Teacher Effects on Longitudinal Student Achievement" 1997
3) Boston Public Schools, "High School Restructuring," March 9, 1998
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Old 05-14-2013, 02:26 PM
 
1,211 posts, read 887,653 times
Reputation: 1107
Here is one other interesting piece of data analysis. Weston is considered to be the best School system in MA, in a leafy wooded suburb. Cambridge is urban and considered to be sub-par based on standardized test scores.

Now if you compare MCAS scores across the schools, Weston comes out way ahead. However if you compare apples to apples, and only look at the "Non-Low Income" category for both schools, Cambridge actually does better with more Advanced scores and fewer with Needs Improvement scores. That's right folks, an urban schools beats THE BEST school system in the state once you control for income. Seems to jive perfectly with the SES correlation with student achievement I illustrated in this thread.

% Advanced % Proficient % Needs Improvement
GRADE LEVEL 3 - READING- Weston 27 53 20
GRADE LEVEL 3 - READING- Cambridge 32 52 16
GRADE LEVEL 3 - MATHEMATICS- Weston 47 35 17
GRADE LEVEL 3 - MATHEMATICS- Cambridge 68 28 0
GRADE LEVEL 4 - ENGLISH LANGUAGE ARTS- Weston 35 48 14
GRADE LEVEL 4 - ENGLISH LANGUAGE ARTS- Cambridge 4 58 38
GRADE LEVEL 4 - MATHEMATICS- Weston 43 41 13
GRADE LEVEL 4 - MATHEMATICS- Cambridge 35 35 27
GRADE LEVEL 5 - ENGLISH LANGUAGE ARTS- Weston 34 49 16
GRADE LEVEL 5 - ENGLISH LANGUAGE ARTS- Cambridge 46 54 0
GRADE LEVEL 5 - MATHEMATICS- Weston 44 36 14
GRADE LEVEL 5 - MATHEMATICS- Cambridge 75 14 7
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