U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-17-2013, 10:23 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,014 posts, read 102,634,943 times
Reputation: 33082

Advertisements

^^That evidence of your is purely anecdotal, a comparison of two schools with disaggregated data. I think most people agree high SES students generally do well, and Cambridge is hardly the inner city. In fact, one could argue (I would) that it's not even "urban". The "achievement gap" is certainly an issue that needs to be addressed, OTOH. Perhaps you'd like your kids to go to schools like the ones in this story:

Colorado Public Radio - Listen to streaming In-Depth News and Classical Music
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-18-2013, 01:53 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,990 posts, read 41,998,698 times
Reputation: 14810
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
^^That evidence of your is purely anecdotal, a comparison of two schools with disaggregated data. I think most people agree high SES students generally do well, and Cambridge is hardly the inner city. In fact, one could argue (I would) that it's not even "urban". The "achievement gap" is certainly an issue that needs to be addressed, OTOH.
It certainly is "inner" parts are within 40 minute walk of downtown Boston. It's one of the densest, most walkable places in New England, if one is looking for that type of environment it's as good or better than just about anywhere in Boston. While many assume having two of the some of the most prestigious universities in the country would make it nearly free of issues, it's an old industrial city which experienced most of its growth in the second of the 19th century and a mild postwar decline partly from deindustrialization. Sure, it's not in the largest city of the metro area, but it underwent a similar history to many older Massachusetts cities.

Many Boston suburbanites (at least on the Massachusetts forum) don't think it's a city with good public schools and would recommend sending your kids elsewhere. While it's certainly not "inner city" in the sense of having "inner city" issues many consider it mediocre. But perhaps one could send your child into schools often considered mediocre (but not terrible) and your child could get a decent education. At least that's what I thought the OP is trying to argue.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2013, 08:09 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,014 posts, read 102,634,943 times
Reputation: 33082
^^The OP seems to be arguing that one can send their kid to any old urban public school, including some of those mentioned in the article I posted (do read it) and do well; therefore, urbanists should have no concerns about city schools, on the basis of the Cambridge schools.

While I realize this is not the education forum, at which to discuss education issues, this is bunk. For one thing, it's impossible to prove, one way or another. No one knows how much better these kids would do at a school where teachers weren't being assaulted, for one thing. Not saying teachers are being assaulted in Cambridge, but they are in Denver. While I don't know MA that well, I would argue that Cambridge is an "outlier" in urban schools, with a large school population of professors' kids. In regards to SES, professors are always complaining about how badly paid they are, how much they could make in the private sector, etc. One would hardly put them in the highest SES category.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-21-2013, 10:59 AM
 
1,211 posts, read 888,152 times
Reputation: 1107
Its not just about being in the Highest SES, just being Non Low-Income makes a big difference. Here is an interesting analysis I did on MCAS scores. Cambridge and Somerville are urban "sub-par" schools. Weston is a wealthy suburbs, and Brookline is very wealthy, partly urban, partly suburban, but with some of the "best" schools in the state. Arlington is a close suburb, not urban, with very good, up and coming schools but not considered on par with Weston or Newton. Interesting how once you control for income, the urban schools basically outperform with a high percentage in the Advanced category and fewer in the Needs Improvement.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1OS...it?usp=sharing
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-21-2013, 02:09 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,014 posts, read 102,634,943 times
Reputation: 33082
Quote:
Originally Posted by semiurbanite View Post
Its not just about being in the Highest SES, just being Non Low-Income makes a big difference. Here is an interesting analysis I did on MCAS scores. Cambridge and Somerville are urban "sub-par" schools. Weston is a wealthy suburbs, and Brookline is very wealthy, partly urban, partly suburban, but with some of the "best" schools in the state. Arlington is a close suburb, not urban, with very good, up and coming schools but not considered on par with Weston or Newton. Interesting how once you control for income, the urban schools basically outperform with a high percentage in the Advanced category and fewer in the Needs Improvement.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1OS...it?usp=sharing
How can that be true if the only factor in achievement is SES, which has been your thesis all along? Also, you are not really comparing "urban" schools as in "schools in the city". This is just another example of people calling an area urban, or suburban, or anything they want to prove a point. Go take a look at the Boston city schools if you're going to talk about urban schools.

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 05-21-2013 at 02:29 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-21-2013, 03:18 PM
 
1,211 posts, read 888,152 times
Reputation: 1107
Well, we cant really get granular income data - its either low income or not. It's possible that the non low-income kids in these urban neighborhoods come from a higher income household than the average for the wealthy suburbs. Housing prices in the nicer urban areas are in line with prices in the wealthy suburbs, so it would not surprise me. If anything, this analysis supports the SES correlation in that wealthy kids in sub-par urban schools get scores that are similar to kids in wealthy suburbs.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-21-2013, 03:30 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,990 posts, read 41,998,698 times
Reputation: 14810
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
How can that be true if the only factor in achievement is SES, which has been your thesis all along? Also, you are not really comparing "urban" schools as in "schools in the city". This is just another example of people calling an area urban, or suburban, or anything they want to prove a point. Go take a look at the Boston city schools if you're going to talk about urban schools.
The locals would mostly refer to Cambridge and Somerville as urban districts as well. I've seen posts "have a job in Cambridge looking to live in a suburb". Semiurbanite is using urban as a synyoym for density.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-21-2013, 03:41 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,014 posts, read 102,634,943 times
Reputation: 33082
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
The locals would mostly refer to Cambridge and Somerville as urban districts as well. I've seen posts "have a job in Cambridge looking to live in a suburb". Semiurbanite is using urban as a synyoym for density.
Since the words urban and suburban can mean anything anyone wants, I guess this whole thread is irrelevant.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-21-2013, 03:46 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,990 posts, read 41,998,698 times
Reputation: 14810
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
^^The OP seems to be arguing that one can send their kid to any old urban public school, including some of those mentioned in the article I posted (do read it) and do well; therefore, urbanists should have no concerns about city schools, on the basis of the Cambridge schools.
Mostly his posts are specifically about Cambridge/Somerville or middling schools simialr to them. I don't think he's thought much about terrible schools.

Quote:
While I realize this is not the education forum, at which to discuss education issues, this is bunk. For one thing, it's impossible to prove, one way or another. No one knows how much better these kids would do at a school where teachers weren't being assaulted, for one thing. Not saying teachers are being assaulted in Cambridge, but they are in Denver.
As for teachers being assaulted in Denver, this is one response I gave to cities "need to care more about schools". It's difficult for any place to deal with problems like that. If the students and social norms are that out of whack, the schools have bigger problems than just poor management. Few well-off suburban schools have to deal with issues such as that.

Quote:
While I don't know MA that well, I would argue that Cambridge is an "outlier" in urban schools, with a large school population of professors' kids. In regards to SES, professors are always complaining about how badly paid they are, how much they could make in the private sector, etc. One would hardly put them in the highest SES category.
It probably is an outlier for that reason, still, Cambridge schools aren't that good. Its greatschools average is 5, the same as New York City [yes, greatschools might not be perfect, but I'm not sure how else to do a quick comparison]. The child % in Cambridge is rather low, 12%, many professors live in nearby towns (Arlington, Belmont and Watertown for example). The housing stock of Cambridge and adjacent Somerville is mostly small apartment buildings and heavily populated by graduate students, younger researchers. The general statement you made "professors live walking distance to the university" isn't really true there. There's also a large population of 20 somethings that moved there unaffaliated with the university, probably triggered by the already there young population. One section is one of the more "hip" sections of Boston, even though it's not technically in Boston (why would they care whether it is or isn't?)

SES = socioeconomic category. Professors might not be in the top pay category but adding in the socio parts, they definitely are. At least these ones are. They're Harvard and MIT profs.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-21-2013, 03:47 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,990 posts, read 41,998,698 times
Reputation: 14810
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Since the words urban and suburban can mean anything anyone wants, I guess this whole thread is irrelevant.
The thread title is "SES and Academic Achievement"

I gave details on why for Cambridge:

here's a streetview of one of the main roads in Cambridge:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=cambr...16.59,,0,-6.19


Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
It certainly is "inner" — parts are within 40 minute walk of downtown Boston. It's one of the densest, most walkable places in New England, if one is looking for that type of environment it's as good or better than just about anywhere in Boston. While many assume having two of the some of the most prestigious universities in the country would make it nearly free of issues, it's an old industrial city which experienced most of its growth in the second of the 19th century and a mild postwar decline partly from deindustrialization. Sure, it's not in the largest city of the metro area, but it underwent a similar history to many older Massachusetts cities.

Many Boston suburbanites (at least on the Massachusetts forum) don't think it's a city with good public schools and would recommend sending your kids elsewhere. While it's certainly not "inner city" in the sense of having "inner city" issues many consider it mediocre. But perhaps one could send your child into schools often considered mediocre (but not terrible) and your child could get a decent education. At least that's what I thought the OP is trying to argue.
I never thought urban meant within the city limits before or after the forum myself.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top