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Old 05-29-2013, 03:42 PM
 
2,553 posts, read 2,004,793 times
Reputation: 1348

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
((^^Throws paper wad at computer screen!))

Tell me how you envision shopping in the suburbs now.

Even better, compare and contrast shopping facilities in the city v the suburbs.
Why would I talk about "the city," which I take to mean deeply urban areas, when I'm talking about the suburbs? (Rhetorical question) I'm not now, nor have I, used "the city" as any kind of reference point. I have no reason to compare the two.

The gas tax doesn't cover the initial or ongoing costs of infrastructure. So, it certainly doesn't cover other costs to society, such as the environment. Do you disagree with either or both of these points?

Even if we just talk about paying for infrastructure, local government has subsidized road use. That is to say, the price we pay to drive has been pushed below the full market price. So we drive more. This also includes freight shipping companies. Is this where we disagree?

What I am saying, then, is, if we bring the cost of driving, in this case we're talking about freight, closer to the full market price, then we change our decisions.

Make freight more expensive and retailers will change how they use freight.

So far, none of this is controversial.

Now, I go on to speculate how retailers would change. I suggest that we would see increased retail density in larger, but fewer, shopping centers/malls/districts. Perhaps this is where we disagree?

 
Old 05-29-2013, 03:56 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 19 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,002 posts, read 102,592,596 times
Reputation: 33059
Please show some numbers to prove your thesis, that freight by truck doesn't pay its full cost.

Why do urbanists screech on about malls and how horrible they are, go rhapsodic about little "mom and pop" stores tucked away in little corners of "the city", then say that suburban shopping isn't centralized enough? Why do urbanists screech about people driving 10 miles to buy a loaf of bread (as if someone who actually lived 10 mi. from a grocery store would do that) then say suburban shopping should be more centralized?
 
Old 05-29-2013, 04:03 PM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 11,101,267 times
Reputation: 3117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Please show some numbers to prove your thesis, that freight by truck doesn't pay its full cost.
Are you aware of any trucking companies that own their own highways?!
 
Old 05-29-2013, 04:11 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 19 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,002 posts, read 102,592,596 times
Reputation: 33059
Quote:
Originally Posted by HandsUpThumbsDown View Post
Are you aware of any trucking companies that own their own highways?!
No. However, that doesn't answer my question. Are you aware that railroads have received many subsidies as well?

ETA:

http://waltercoffey.wordpress.com/20...ntal-railroad/
Building a railroad across America was a remarkable engineering feat. However, the alliance between corporations and government that built the railroad set a precedent for the wasteful and corrupt mismanagement of taxpayer money that flourishes today.

Because the railroad companies were funded by taxpayers, there was less incentive to function efficiently or responsibly.


Plus much more!

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 05-29-2013 at 04:22 PM..
 
Old 05-29-2013, 05:20 PM
 
2,553 posts, read 2,004,793 times
Reputation: 1348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Please show some numbers to prove your thesis, that freight by truck doesn't pay its full cost.

Why do urbanists screech on about malls and how horrible they are, go rhapsodic about little "mom and pop" stores tucked away in little corners of "the city", then say that suburban shopping isn't centralized enough? Why do urbanists screech about people driving 10 miles to buy a loaf of bread (as if someone who actually lived 10 mi. from a grocery store would do that) then say suburban shopping should be more centralized?
I've got to say, I'm a little confused. There's a lot there to respond to, not all of which are responses to me as much as to some pro-urban, anti-suburban "other." I haven't mentioned urban areas, driving distances for consumers, or loaves of bread.

I'm not promoting some personal ideal vision except in promoting internalizing costs. Externalized costs distort markets.

That means I haven't been saying I think suburban shopping should be more centralized. I have been saying that I think it would, as a result of internalized shipping costs, concentrate in to fewer, larger, and denser centers, malls, and districts.
 
Old 05-29-2013, 06:01 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 19 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,002 posts, read 102,592,596 times
Reputation: 33059
I'm a little confused too. I'm an applied science type; I like to see numbers. Also, I'd like to know just what you think shopping in the suburbs is like now. One of the criticisms of suburbs is too many malls, etc.

I take what people say about "I'm not promoting XXX" with a grain of salt.
 
Old 05-29-2013, 09:15 PM
 
9,520 posts, read 14,827,437 times
Reputation: 9769
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
When I say right-of-way, I don't specifically mean land.
When you're talking about rail or roadbuilding, that's what "right-of-way" means.

Quote:
Anyway, my original point was and is that if cargo trucks, like the kind that deliver to grocery and convenience stores, had to pay, per mile, for road use, the form of retail in the suburbs, and the form of the suburbs in general, would look different.
You are mistaken, because such trucks do pay per mile for road use.
 
Old 05-29-2013, 09:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
1,875 posts, read 2,695,082 times
Reputation: 1157
Suburbs have evolved! Many of which are turning into important economic hubs outside of Major cities. Bellevue, Washington 25 years ago was just a small suburb of Seattle but now has grown into an important city of the PNW
 
Old 05-29-2013, 09:29 PM
 
Location: North Baltimore ----> Seattle
6,473 posts, read 11,101,267 times
Reputation: 3117
Quote:
Originally Posted by DevanXL View Post
Suburbs have evolved! Many of which are turning into important economic hubs outside of Major cities. Bellevue, Washington 25 years ago was just a small suburb of Seattle but now has grown into an important city of the PNW
True in the Northwest ... Less true elsewhere. Smart land use policy is crucial.
 
Old 05-30-2013, 05:58 AM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,610 posts, read 3,761,439 times
Reputation: 1616
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
I've got to say, I'm a little confused. There's a lot there to respond to, not all of which are responses to me as much as to some pro-urban, anti-suburban "other." I haven't mentioned urban areas, driving distances for consumers, or loaves of bread.

I'm not promoting some personal ideal vision except in promoting internalizing costs. Externalized costs distort markets.

That means I haven't been saying I think suburban shopping should be more centralized. I have been saying that I think it would, as a result of internalized shipping costs, concentrate in to fewer, larger, and denser centers, malls, and districts.
Your solution means that all the customers will have to go further to get to the store though. If you're also increasing the costs of driving a car, that will cause demand for stores that are closer to the customer, so more smaller shopping areas and counter the effect of higher trucking costs. I could see the net effect being more smaller shopping areas than today.
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